It should be possible to ungive the Noble Prize

[regexcellent]

Wow, that is harsh.

[Ben Kenobi]

Damn skippy. This is how a lot of Soviet emigres are.

Yeah, no kidding. I went to a Russian Mennonite church back when I was a protestant. Some of their stories.. And yes - more pro- American than the Americans!

It left me wondering because at the time I'd never been to the United States.

Then I came and I found out that America is awesome!

[Hauldren Collider]

Wow, that is harsh.

[molly bloom]

3. Mandela. South Africa's a terrible ****hole right now.

So Mandela should be deprived of his because of what his successors have or haven't done ? Why is that ?

As for the usual uninformed 'South Africa's a ... now' statement, when was the golden age of South Africa ?

When black South African children suffered kwashiorkor and pellagra in a two year drought and the then apartheid government sold surplus maize abroad at a price lower than the Maize Board's domestic price and threw away surplus milk ?

Apartheid South Africa repeatedly destroyed surplus fruit and milk so that government control boards could artificially keep up prices.

Hint : one third of a pint of milk a day is enough to prevent a child from contracting kwashiorkor. What is kwashiorkor ?

Kwashiorkor is a form of malnutrition most often found in children. It is caused by not eating enough protein, despite a reasonable intake of calories.

Like other forms of malnutrition, kwashiorkor initially causes:

•fatigue
•irritability
•drowsiness
If the person continues to be deprived of protein, they will typically:

•fail to put on weight and fail to grow in height
•lose muscle mass
•develop swelling under the skin (oedema)
•develop a 'pot belly'
•have an enlarged fatty liver
•be vulnerable to infections because of a failing immune system
•develop red, inflamed patches of skin that darken and peel or split open ('crazy pavement dermatosis')
•develop dry, sparse, brittle hair that may turn reddish yellow or white
•develop ridged nails

How well the person does after treatment depends on their stage of malnutrition when treatment began.

If treatment was started early, the person usually recovers well, although children will never reach their full growth potential.

If treatment was started in the later stages of malnutrition, the person may be left with physical and intellectual disabilities.

If kwashiorkor is not treated or treatment is delayed, it can result in death.

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/kwashiorkor/Pages/Introduction.aspx

Pellagra :

Presentation

Classically described as '3 Ds':
•D ementia
•D iarrhoea
•D ermatitis

Some add a fourth D - D eath.

Early symptoms include:
•Loss of appetite
•Generalised weakness
•Irritability and aggression
•Abdominal pain
•Vomiting

Continued deficiency leads to epithelial changes leading to:
•Stomatitis.
•Bright red glossitis.
•Vaginitis.
•Oesophagitis.
•Dermatitis - classically, a pigmented, scaly rash prominent in sun-exposed skin, eg the back of the hand, called 'gauntlet of pellagra' or on the neck where it can form a ring called 'Casal's necklace'. The rash begins as itchy erythema and then looks similar to a tan and may vesiculate.[3][4]

Other features include:
•Diarrhoea - due to a combination of proctitis and malabsorption.
•Dementia - may present as depression, followed by memory deficits and hallucinations or psychosis may occur.
•Seizures.
•Paraesthesia may occur.
•Malabsorption.

http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Pellagra.htm

The cost of treatment for kwashiorkor during the same period, at the King Edward VIII hospital in Durban, say- R 700, 000 over ten years.

'The curative cost of treatment for one surviving child for a 30 day period is about R 143, while the preventive cost for the same period is about 80 cents.'

Rand Daily Mail 1968

That 80 cents was the cost of one third of a pint of milk a day.

Please let me know when you think South Africa was a great place to live and why, and for whom. And what the true cost of that golden lifestyle was.

[Ben Kenobi]

So Mandela should be deprived of his because of what his successors have or haven't done ? Why is that ?

Mandela should be deprived for several reasons.

One, he's a terrorist. He killed people to further his ambitions and goals. He achieved his goals which was power. How he was considered peaceable when he was the one making the threats to other people that unless they did what he wanted there would be more violence.

Two, yes, South Africa is a ****hole. It used to be a decent place. Why is it not decent now? Because of Mandela and his 'plan'. I really don't see how apartheid for blacks is somehow inferior to apartheid for whites - where White South Africans can suffer and die and be killed just because they happen to live in South Africa. Why did the white people leave the country that they'd been born in because black people came from somewhere else and decided that they liked living there? Why should they leave?

I look at it this way. Would South Africa be better off if there never was a Mandela? Absolutely. Klerk was right - but because of Mandela - dropping apartheid did not make black folks better off in South Africa - it did not give them the tools that they needed to better themselves or the training to make use of what was there. Punishing the white folks has not made the black folks better off.

The solution would be to protect everyone in South Africa - white or black. But, that's not what has happened is it? Mandela should suffer the same way the people who've lived in South Africa have had to suffer because of his moronic 'cause'. But, again - he doesn't care because it's always been about power and not about peace since day one with Mandela.

As for the usual uninformed 'South Africa's a ... now' statement, when was the golden age of South Africa ?

Prior to the dissolution of Apartheid. Sad to say but the killing of white people, confiscation of their property hasn't made black people better off.

Apartheid South Africa repeatedly destroyed surplus fruit and milk so that government control boards could artificially keep up prices.

And apartheid Black South Africa today - you can be killed just for living in the wrong place at the wrong time, for nothing more than living. Will they be punished for it? No.

[Jon Miller]

In South Africa there is pretty heavy punishment against both African and White (and other) criminals. I spent a bit of time talking to a senior police officer. He probably shot and killed more people per year than the average US solder did over the last 20.

JM

[Jon Miller]

White people were not killed in South Africa and their property was not confiscated.

Because of Mandela.

If Mandela had not been there, I agree, that is likely what would have happened.

Your statements are sick, I think it is because you are trolling or stupid.

JM

[molly bloom]

Mandela should be deprived for several reasons.

One, he's a terrorist. He killed people to further his ambitions and goals. .

He did , did he ? Who and when ?

Secondly, Begin and Shamir were called terrorists. So was Eamonn de Valera. I believe even in the American War Of Independence people died and terror was used. What's the big difference ?

Of course you have the luxury of never having lived under a totalitarian state- which apartheid South Africa was. To achieve freedom in neighbouring Portuguese colonies (also run by a racist rightwing dictatorship) Africans had to use violence- the Portuguese dictatorship was not amenable to any kind of suggestion of civil rights and peaceful transition to self-rule. Neither was the apartheid regime.

Two, yes, South Africa is a ****hole. It used to be a decent place.

So I'll ask you again. When was it a 'decent place', for whom, and how was it decent, and who paid the price for this 'decency' ?

where White South Africans can suffer and die and be killed just because they happen to live in South Africa.

So are you suggesting that Mandela was directly responsible for killing white South Africans when he was elected ? Or has ordered others to kill white South Africans solely on the grounds of race since then ?

Evidence please.

Why did the white people leave the country that they'd been born

Simple. Because they were no longer in a position to dominate the over 80% of the population who were not white, and who had been born there too.

Why should they leave?

I can't recall Mandela ordering them to leave.

- dropping apartheid did not make black folks better off in South Africa

Right. Mandela and the A.N.C. were just going to eradicate the effects of over a century of discrimination based on race and half a centurty of an apartheid state dedicated to the underdevelopment and repression of the non-white majority- by economic, legal and military means. They'd just hand out all those bags of gold the apartheid regime was keeping for a rainy day.

Punishing the white folks has not made the black folks better off.

What punishment ? Specific evidence of measures introduced by the Mandela government that targeted whites because they were white.

The solution would be to protect everyone in South Africa - white or black. But, that's not what has happened is it?

Not familiar with South Africa's new legal system, constitution or courts, are you ?

Mandela should suffer the same way the people who've lived in South Africa have had to suffer

So being imprisoned and developing illnesses from imprisonment wasn't enough. Not a very Christian attitude Bennie.

Prior to the dissolution of Apartheid.

Unbelievable and stupid.

And apartheid Black South Africa today

Hysterical, obtuse and insulting. Down to your usual level. Well done!

[molly bloom]

I don't think it's really fair to blame world war II on anyone but Hitler. The consequences of the League of Nations and the Treaty of Versailles and so on were so distant and so unpredictable that it's pointless to assign blame.

Keynes says you're an idiot.

[Jon Miller]

I put Mandela up there with George Washington as the greatest revolutionary leaders of all time.

JM

[Jon Miller]

I put Mandela up there with George Washington as the greatest revolutionary leaders of all time.

It was just unfortunate who was with him while Washington had greats with him.

JM

[Jon Miller]

I wonder where you get your wild lies from.

Here is wikipedia about the truth and reconciliation commission. If it had any problems, it was that it was too lenient on the former members of the apartheid regime.
"The TRC's emphasis on reconciliation is in sharp contrast to the approach taken by the Nuremberg Trials after World War II and other de-Nazification measures. Because of the perceived success[citation needed] of the reconciliatory approach in dealing with human-rights violations after political change either from internal or external factors, other countries have instituted similar commissions, though not always with the same scope or the allowance for charging those currently in power. The success of the "TRC method" versus the "Nuremberg method" of prosecution is open for debate."

"While former president F.W. de Klerk appeared before the commission and reiterated his apology for the suffering caused by apartheid, many black South Africans were angered at amnesty being granted for human rights abuses committed by the apartheid government. The BBC described such criticisms as stemming from a "basic misunderstanding" about the TRC's mandate,[15] which was to uncover the truth about past abuse, using amnesty as a mechanism, rather than to punish past crimes."

It was implemented by Mandela and Tutu.

It was almost ridiculously merciful. Something more like what you would expect out of Sweden or something and not something that you would have expected given the culture of fear, hate and conflict in Africa (especially South Africa).

JM

[Jon Miller]

Link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_Reconciliation_Commission_(South_Africa)

If there is any recent world political leader that deserves it, it is Mandela.

JM

[Jon Miller]

I am sorry to keep posting, but to me it feels like Ben is a Nazi apologist.

It is just entirely crazy.

More wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela

Mandela personally met with senior figures of the apartheid regime, including Hendrik Verwoerd's widow Betsie Schoombie and the lawyer Percy Yutar; emphasising personal forgiveness and reconciliation, he announced that "courageous people do not fear forgiving, for the sake of peace."[222] He encouraged black South Africans to get behind the previously hated national rugby team, the Springboks, as South Africa hosted the 1995 Rugby World Cup. After the Springboks won an epic final over New Zealand, Mandela presented the trophy to captain Francois Pienaar, an Afrikaner, wearing a Springbok shirt with Pienaar's own number 6 on the back. This was widely seen as a major step in the reconciliation of white and black South Africans; as de Klerk later put it, "Mandela won the hearts of millions of white rugby fans."[223] Mandela's efforts at reconciliation assuaged the fears of whites, but also drew criticism from more militant blacks. His estranged wife, Winnie, accused the ANC of being more interested in appeasing whites than in helping blacks.[224]
More controversially, Mandela oversaw the formation of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to investigate crimes committed under apartheid by both the government and the ANC, appointing Desmond Tutu as its chair. To prevent the creation of martyrs, the Commission granted individual amnesties in exchange for testimony of crimes committed during the apartheid era. Dedicated in February 1996, it held two years of hearings detailing rapes, torture, bombings, and assassinations, before issuing its final report in October 1998. Both de Klerk and Mbeki appealed to have parts of the report suppressed, though only de Klerk's appeal was successful.[225] Mandela praised the Commission's work, stating that it "had helped us move away from the past to concentrate on the present and the future".[226]

JM

[regexcellent]

Maybe if Mandela had been followed up by people like Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, things would have been okay, but instead South Africa got ****heels like Mbeki and Zuma. It's hard to judge his legacy well in context as a result.