Benghazi Will Screw Obama, Which He Deserves

[Imran Siddiqui]

Obama is hated because he represents a different type of government not because he is black. I do believe that there are probably some racism, but I don't think that is the major issue. The major issue is a resistance to change in my opinion.

My problem is that Obama is basically Clinton 2.0 (and likely more moderate than Hillary Clinton). Was Bill Clinton hated, sure. But not at this level. And Hillary doesn't get nearly as badly attacked these days like Obama does.

There is more too it than a "different kind of government".

[giblets]

My problem is that Obama is basically Clinton 2.0 (and likely more moderate than Hillary Clinton). Was Bill Clinton hated, sure. But not at this level. And Hillary doesn't get nearly as badly attacked these days like Obama does.

There is more too it than a "different kind of government".

Hillary isn't getting attacked as much because she is only secretary of state. However not-moderate her political positions might be it doesn't really matter to anyone right now.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Hillary isn't getting attacked as much because she is only secretary of state. However not-moderate her political positions might be it doesn't really matter to anyone right now.

These days meaning in the last decade. Including when she was running in the primaries.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

My problem is that Obama is basically Clinton 2.0 (and likely more moderate than Hillary Clinton). Was Bill Clinton hated, sure. But not at this level.

Disagree completely. Repubs at the time went so bat ****e insane as to impeach him (Bill Clinton that is). Whats different today is that the voices of moderation saw how over the cliff some had gone back then and a backlash ocurred. The moderates who once were able to evoke sympahty for the other side have vanished largely in part for all the "commity" they were afforded during W years. Thus all thats left is the same shrill voices hating the other party and what used to be a bunch of moderates sitting on the sideline saying to themselves paybacks a ***** for either side.

[MRT144]

Voices of moderation still voted for Obama though...

[Felch]

Couple of things.. 3% of Americans is 9 million people. 3% is also the percentage of people who were willing to openly admit to a researcher in the 21st century that they are racist. How high do you think the real number might just be?

I think the real number is around 3%. Only a very tiny minority is actually racist. Socially conservative blacks like Herman Cain and Ben Carson are popular among extreme right wingers. Most people are more contemptuous on a class or regional basis than anything else. A middle class black guy who shoots guns, goes to church, talks like a normal person, and doesn't trust the government would be welcome at any right wing event.

Skin color is far less of a factor in everyday life than education, wealth, or politics.

[Felch]

My problem is that Obama is basically Clinton 2.0 (and likely more moderate than Hillary Clinton). Was Bill Clinton hated, sure. But not at this level. And Hillary doesn't get nearly as badly attacked these days like Obama does.

There is more too it than a "different kind of government".

Ogie is right. Republicans hated Bill Clinton enough to impeach him. This is about politics, not race.

[Imran Siddiqui]

He got impeached because he was stupid enough to lie under oath. Any President's opponents would have loved to have that.

[snoopy369]

I think the real number is around 3%. Only a very tiny minority is actually racist. Socially conservative blacks like Herman Cain and Ben Carson are popular among extreme right wingers. Most people are more contemptuous on a class or regional basis than anything else. A middle class black guy who shoots guns, goes to church, talks like a normal person, and doesn't trust the government would be welcome at any right wing event.

Skin color is far less of a factor in everyday life than education, wealth, or politics.

I think that it's really hard to say. "Extreme racists" are probably only 3-5%. But people who would marginally favor a white person over a black person? Presented two identical people to hire, same exact resume, just one is black and one is white? That's way, way more. 40% [would choose the white resume every time rather than 50/50 shot]? 60%? Who knows, but it's way up there (see for example the 'name/resume' study). And of course it works both ways (black people will tend to hire black people, white people tend to hire white people); much of that probably is due to the automatic preference for 'similar' people, after all. But look at employment tendencies; the 'old boy's network' and all that is certainly significant, and while it works both ways, the fact that more white people are in charge due to historic reasons means it will be a long time before it balances out.

As far as the Obama discussion, this is relevant only insomuch as to say that Obama isn't hated primarily for his race, but perhaps it's a slight factor increasing the vitriol for those on the margin.

[PLATO]

I think that it's really hard to say. "Extreme racists" are probably only 3-5%. But people who would marginally favor a white person over a black person? Presented two identical people to hire, same exact resume, just one is black and one is white? That's way, way more. 40% [would choose the white resume every time rather than 50/50 shot]? 60%? Who knows, but it's way up there (see for example the 'name/resume' study). And of course it works both ways (black people will tend to hire black people, white people tend to hire white people); much of that probably is due to the automatic preference for 'similar' people, after all. But look at employment tendencies; the 'old boy's network' and all that is certainly significant, and while it works both ways, the fact that more white people are in charge due to historic reasons means it will be a long time before it balances out.

As far as the Obama discussion, this is relevant only insomuch as to say that Obama isn't hated primarily for his race, but perhaps it's a slight factor increasing the vitriol for those on the margin.

Yes...this.

Extreme racism has been dealt severe blows. "Marginal racism" is much harder to deal with. IMO, the key is providing opportunity. If this country ever wants to really deal with racism then a black kid in the inner city must have the same opportunity as a white kid in the suburbs. That will take some doing though.

[Felch]

I think that it's really hard to say. "Extreme racists" are probably only 3-5%. But people who would marginally favor a white person over a black person? Presented two identical people to hire, same exact resume, just one is black and one is white? That's way, way more. 40%? 60%? Who knows, but it's way up there (see for example the 'name/resume' study). And of course it works both ways (black people will tend to hire black people, white people tend to hire white people); much of that probably is due to the automatic preference for 'similar' people, after all. But look at employment tendencies; the 'old boy's network' and all that is certainly significant, and while it works both ways, the fact that more white people are in charge due to historic reasons means it will be a long time before it balances out.

That's perfectly natural. I've voted for candidates with Irish names over those with Anglo-Saxon names, for no other reason than ethnic preference. That doesn't mean that if Martin O'Malley were up against Rand Paul I'd vote for the gun grabbing piece of **** a second time. It just means that when all else is equal, I go for the guy who's "closer" to me. Race and ethnicity are more tie-breakers than primary motivators.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

As far as the Obama discussion, this is relevant only insomuch as to say that Obama isn't hated primarily for his race, but perhaps it's a slight factor increasing the vitriol for those on the margin.

I don't think there is enough that it even remotely moves the needle from hate the opposition to hate the man. Heck more people following inside baseball hate Pelosi and Reid moreso than Obama. Largely becaause they think Obama by and large is powerless and ineffective and credit the damage done to the former two moreso than the latter.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

He got impeached because he was stupid enough to lie under oath. Any President's opponents would have loved to have that.

No one argued the facts. What was argued effectively inthe public court of opinion sphere was why the pursuit of these facts given how meaningless/trivial they were, and that is why the backlash occurred. GOP was mean spirited for pushing what otherwise would have been in polite society turned a blind eye towards. But don't for a second think the GOP knowing full well the gotcha moment they had weren't all about hating the opposition/Clinton and overplaying their hand as a consequence.

[PLATO]

No one argued the facts. What was argued effectively inthe public court of opinion sphere was why the pursuit of these facts given how meaningless/trivial they were, and that is why the backlash occurred. GOP was mean spirited for pushing what otherwise would have been in polite society turned a blind eye towards. But don't for a second think the GOP knowing full well the gotcha moment they had weren't all about hating the opposition/Clinton and overplaying their hand as a consequence.

It is never meaningless for the chief executive to lie under oath. Just because the thing he lied about didn't have national consequences does not trivialize lying under oath. That is a serious offense and should be dealt with accordingly. To allow that to pass would undermine the entire concept of justice...which a President must support.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

I'm not arguing that. It was simply that the court of general opinion battle was lost and due in large part to a number of moderates who thought we should all just get along. That sentiment died pretty rapidly over the next few years as during the W years the battle lines were drawn with no bystanders.