Benghazi Will Screw Obama, Which He Deserves

[kentonio]

The saddest thing about this thread is how Americans apparently appear to some foreigners. I guess that the problems that we have are overshadowed in the media compared to the successes. Every western country has faced racism problems in its development. The U.S., over the last 40 years, has done a tremendous amount to combat it.

We've all had some pretty terrible problems with racism. I think the thing that irritates me about the US however is that there seems to be this idea that it's something you've solved and that anyone who talks about it now is just doing so to take advantage of old wounds. That especially rankles when the people raising it are black intellectuals who both see and live with the continuing effects of racism but who get told (as Elok did earlier) that they're just 'making a living off it'.

As a country you deserve to be applauded for the huge leaps you've taken in race relations, and electing a black president was a huge step. When we elected Mrs Thatcher it did a great deal for women's rights, however we didn't suddenly solve gender inequality overnight. You've come a long way, but you have a long way still to go and that means accepting that there's still battles to fight.

Does racism still exist? Yes. Is it the focal point of our politics like ken seems to think. No, not at all.

I don't think it's a focal point, I think it's an ever present cancer that for a long time was mostly kept hidden (like it is in many countries including my own) but which was allowed to surface post 9/11. I don't think it drives US politics in any huge meaningful way, it's more like a dirty little trick that is still abused by certain politicians to whore for votes. The danger however is when it's allowed to enter mainstream political dialogue, and we've been getting dangerously close to that point over the last 5 years.

Obama is hated because he represents a different type of government not because he is black. I do believe that there are probably some racism, but I don't think that is the major issue. The major issue is a resistance to change in my opinion. Many people want it...many don't. Those that don't see their whole concept of government being challenged and thus the hate and the anti-governmentism. People should remember though that he was elected on a "change" platform.

If he'd actually done anything to enact change then I'd happily agree with you. That said there was always going to be a significant amount of racists that would hate him regardless. As recently as 2006 3% of voters polled said they wouldn't vote for an African American. 15% wouldn't vote for a Jew. A giant 54% wouldn't vote for a Muslim. Hell 8% wouldn't even vote for a woman! The idea that a candidates politics are the only motivation driving voters impressions are sadly pretty far from the mark.

[Felch]

If he'd actually done anything to enact change then I'd happily agree with you. That said there was always going to be a significant amount of racists that would hate him regardless. As recently as 2006 3% of voters polled said they wouldn't vote for an African American. 15% wouldn't vote for a Jew. A giant 54% wouldn't vote for a Muslim. Hell 8% wouldn't even vote for a woman! The idea that a candidates politics are the only motivation driving voters impressions are sadly pretty far from the mark.

3% of voters isn't something to get worked up about. I'd bet 3% of UK voters would never vote for a Catholic. ****, I bet 3% of UK voters wouldn't vote for anybody openly practicing any religion. It'd be ridiculous to vote for a religious nutter.

[kentonio]

3% of voters isn't something to get worked up about. I'd bet 3% of UK voters would never vote for a Catholic. ****, I bet 3% of UK voters wouldn't vote for anybody openly practicing any religion. It'd be ridiculous to vote for a religious nutter.

Couple of things.. 3% of Americans is 9 million people. 3% is also the percentage of people who were willing to openly admit to a researcher in the 21st century that they are racist. How high do you think the real number might just be?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Obama is hated because he represents a different type of government not because he is black. I do believe that there are probably some racism, but I don't think that is the major issue. The major issue is a resistance to change in my opinion.

My problem is that Obama is basically Clinton 2.0 (and likely more moderate than Hillary Clinton). Was Bill Clinton hated, sure. But not at this level. And Hillary doesn't get nearly as badly attacked these days like Obama does.

There is more too it than a "different kind of government".

[giblets]

My problem is that Obama is basically Clinton 2.0 (and likely more moderate than Hillary Clinton). Was Bill Clinton hated, sure. But not at this level. And Hillary doesn't get nearly as badly attacked these days like Obama does.

There is more too it than a "different kind of government".

Hillary isn't getting attacked as much because she is only secretary of state. However not-moderate her political positions might be it doesn't really matter to anyone right now.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Hillary isn't getting attacked as much because she is only secretary of state. However not-moderate her political positions might be it doesn't really matter to anyone right now.

These days meaning in the last decade. Including when she was running in the primaries.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

My problem is that Obama is basically Clinton 2.0 (and likely more moderate than Hillary Clinton). Was Bill Clinton hated, sure. But not at this level.

Disagree completely. Repubs at the time went so bat ****e insane as to impeach him (Bill Clinton that is). Whats different today is that the voices of moderation saw how over the cliff some had gone back then and a backlash ocurred. The moderates who once were able to evoke sympahty for the other side have vanished largely in part for all the "commity" they were afforded during W years. Thus all thats left is the same shrill voices hating the other party and what used to be a bunch of moderates sitting on the sideline saying to themselves paybacks a ***** for either side.

[MRT144]

Voices of moderation still voted for Obama though...

[Felch]

Couple of things.. 3% of Americans is 9 million people. 3% is also the percentage of people who were willing to openly admit to a researcher in the 21st century that they are racist. How high do you think the real number might just be?

I think the real number is around 3%. Only a very tiny minority is actually racist. Socially conservative blacks like Herman Cain and Ben Carson are popular among extreme right wingers. Most people are more contemptuous on a class or regional basis than anything else. A middle class black guy who shoots guns, goes to church, talks like a normal person, and doesn't trust the government would be welcome at any right wing event.

Skin color is far less of a factor in everyday life than education, wealth, or politics.

[Felch]

My problem is that Obama is basically Clinton 2.0 (and likely more moderate than Hillary Clinton). Was Bill Clinton hated, sure. But not at this level. And Hillary doesn't get nearly as badly attacked these days like Obama does.

There is more too it than a "different kind of government".

Ogie is right. Republicans hated Bill Clinton enough to impeach him. This is about politics, not race.

[Imran Siddiqui]

He got impeached because he was stupid enough to lie under oath. Any President's opponents would have loved to have that.

[snoopy369]

I think the real number is around 3%. Only a very tiny minority is actually racist. Socially conservative blacks like Herman Cain and Ben Carson are popular among extreme right wingers. Most people are more contemptuous on a class or regional basis than anything else. A middle class black guy who shoots guns, goes to church, talks like a normal person, and doesn't trust the government would be welcome at any right wing event.

Skin color is far less of a factor in everyday life than education, wealth, or politics.

I think that it's really hard to say. "Extreme racists" are probably only 3-5%. But people who would marginally favor a white person over a black person? Presented two identical people to hire, same exact resume, just one is black and one is white? That's way, way more. 40% [would choose the white resume every time rather than 50/50 shot]? 60%? Who knows, but it's way up there (see for example the 'name/resume' study). And of course it works both ways (black people will tend to hire black people, white people tend to hire white people); much of that probably is due to the automatic preference for 'similar' people, after all. But look at employment tendencies; the 'old boy's network' and all that is certainly significant, and while it works both ways, the fact that more white people are in charge due to historic reasons means it will be a long time before it balances out.

As far as the Obama discussion, this is relevant only insomuch as to say that Obama isn't hated primarily for his race, but perhaps it's a slight factor increasing the vitriol for those on the margin.

[PLATO]

I think that it's really hard to say. "Extreme racists" are probably only 3-5%. But people who would marginally favor a white person over a black person? Presented two identical people to hire, same exact resume, just one is black and one is white? That's way, way more. 40% [would choose the white resume every time rather than 50/50 shot]? 60%? Who knows, but it's way up there (see for example the 'name/resume' study). And of course it works both ways (black people will tend to hire black people, white people tend to hire white people); much of that probably is due to the automatic preference for 'similar' people, after all. But look at employment tendencies; the 'old boy's network' and all that is certainly significant, and while it works both ways, the fact that more white people are in charge due to historic reasons means it will be a long time before it balances out.

As far as the Obama discussion, this is relevant only insomuch as to say that Obama isn't hated primarily for his race, but perhaps it's a slight factor increasing the vitriol for those on the margin.

Yes...this.

Extreme racism has been dealt severe blows. "Marginal racism" is much harder to deal with. IMO, the key is providing opportunity. If this country ever wants to really deal with racism then a black kid in the inner city must have the same opportunity as a white kid in the suburbs. That will take some doing though.

[Felch]

I think that it's really hard to say. "Extreme racists" are probably only 3-5%. But people who would marginally favor a white person over a black person? Presented two identical people to hire, same exact resume, just one is black and one is white? That's way, way more. 40%? 60%? Who knows, but it's way up there (see for example the 'name/resume' study). And of course it works both ways (black people will tend to hire black people, white people tend to hire white people); much of that probably is due to the automatic preference for 'similar' people, after all. But look at employment tendencies; the 'old boy's network' and all that is certainly significant, and while it works both ways, the fact that more white people are in charge due to historic reasons means it will be a long time before it balances out.

That's perfectly natural. I've voted for candidates with Irish names over those with Anglo-Saxon names, for no other reason than ethnic preference. That doesn't mean that if Martin O'Malley were up against Rand Paul I'd vote for the gun grabbing piece of **** a second time. It just means that when all else is equal, I go for the guy who's "closer" to me. Race and ethnicity are more tie-breakers than primary motivators.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

As far as the Obama discussion, this is relevant only insomuch as to say that Obama isn't hated primarily for his race, but perhaps it's a slight factor increasing the vitriol for those on the margin.

I don't think there is enough that it even remotely moves the needle from hate the opposition to hate the man. Heck more people following inside baseball hate Pelosi and Reid moreso than Obama. Largely becaause they think Obama by and large is powerless and ineffective and credit the damage done to the former two moreso than the latter.