Remember the fall of The Alamo

[SlowwHand]

Michael, talk all the trash that you want, but dying for a cause you believe in is better than being capped by a meth freak boosting a car, stepping your ass in front of a bus or getting smoked back home by a punk you were trying to help. Re: Chris Kyle. His family may not see the point, but I know he sees the bull**** irony in it.
God, Country and Family. I'd gladly die for any of them. You enlisted. To some degree, you feel the same, no matter your bombastic speech.
To what point you agree or disagree, that's certainly your right. The men at the Alamo made that decision. They knew the outcome that was ordained.
As far as a response to whomever said "why should I care", I don't give a flying **** if the concept is lost on you or not.

[MichaeltheGreat]

I believe in Patton's precept that "no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.

Dead's dead. I'll take dying fighting over getting killed running like a cur, but there's usually a better tactical alternative. There's things I'd die for, more things I would (and have) killed for, but there's no "glory" in any of it.

Sam Houston's a bit of a worship object in Texas history, but IMO, he wasn't very tactically adept, and that's putting it kindly. Classic example of better to be lucky than good, because that separation of forces was likely to be fatal to the Texan cause, if Santa Anna hadn't been almost unbelievably inept. Against the likes of de Urrea, it's a different story. Even after San Jacinto, de Urrea could have wiped the floor with the Texans, and he wanted to. Lucky for Texas he also obeyed orders.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ah, yes, the Beniverse. Where "honorable profession" is synonymous with "die gloriously." You're a real ****ing clown. So do your so-called "servicemen" use vaseline when you service them?

That's the other fallacy. Just because a subset of an honorable profession includes this, doesn't mean that all honorable professions do this.

[Ben Kenobi]

Do you actually know anything about the battle of San Jacinto? Santa Anna decided everyone should take a nice little siesta out in the open without any pickets or sentries or any form of prepared position. He could have had double or triple the number of men, they still would have routed with extreme casualties. Something about waking up from a nap with a musket ball down your throat and a bayonet up your ass tends to demoralize people. Without surprise and a "gimme" tactical situation, the Texicans don't win in any event. With the situation Santa Anna handed them, they win against double the numbers.

I know enough given the tactical situation of Texas vs Mexico at this point in time, that this war was virtually impossible for Mexico to lose. But, lose they did.

10 days of only a "siege" because the Texicans holed up and stuck in place.

That's what a siege is.

Sitting on your ass immobilizing yourself and waiting for the enemy does not constitute a siege.

And defending the largest town, if it can be called that then, in Texas is not?

The Alamo was only a "siege" because it feels better for the Texans to have a myth.

Wow, does it make you feel like more of a man questioning the manhood of Texans? Gosh, you must be so virile.

Houston, especially with the Alamo forces and guns at his disposal

Sigh. Houston could not have linked up with the Alamo forces at the start, because Houston's forces at that point were not formed. He was still mobilizing.

They should have been.

Takes time to mobilize people to the defense of Texas. They didn't have a standing army.

Dividing an inferior defensive force and spreading it over great distance violates every source of infantry doctrine to that time from Sun Tzu to Jomini.

What was there to divide? They mobilized and collected that way.

Had de Urrea been in overall command, the Texans would have had a tough time.

As if the time they did have wasn't tough! Wow. You are seriously, the only person ever who claims that it was even remotely a fair war between the Republic of Texas and Mexico.

Fannin WAS ORDERED to retreat, fumduck.

Fannin couldn't even get his troops to stay in ****ing Goliad and got caught outside which didn't work well.

he was too isolated in an untenable position.

He was in much better shape than the defenders of the Alamo. He should have sat ****ing tight in Goliad and done his job.

as he was engaged by de Urrea's forces, not Santa Anna's, and de Urrea was deliberately kept by Santa Anna from having any role in San Jacinto.

Oh, right, the magic man who was invincible.

[MichaeltheGreat]

That's the other fallacy. Just because a subset of an honorable profession includes this, doesn't mean that all honorable professions do this.

The only "servicemen" as you put it who run their mouths about "dying gloriously" to a circus freak are no doubt trying to get your serviceman's discount.

[Ben Kenobi]

The only "servicemen" as you put it who run their mouths about "dying gloriously" to a circus freak are no doubt trying to get your serviceman's discount.

Spoken from the man who already said, "It ain't queer..." We're learning more and more about you all the time. Oh, and it's 'midget', not circus freak, tyvm.

[MichaeltheGreat]

That's what a siege is.

No, a is an offensive act of surrounding and blockading an enemy position. Sitting and allowing yourself to be encircled is stupidity.

Wow, does it make you feel like more of a man questioning the manhood of Texans? Gosh, you must be so virile.

This is another example of how ****ing stupid you are in your little circus freak world of inadequacy. Manhood is your way of thinking. Were they women dressed as men or did they have dicks and balls? "Manhood" is a pathetic obsession of people like you who don't measure up. Calling out strategic or tactical incompetence != questioning "manhood." Texicans lionize the Alamo and make these leaders out to be great heroes, when they were inept and dealing with more ineptness.

Sigh. Houston could not have linked up with the Alamo forces at the start, because Houston's forces at that point were not formed. He was still mobilizing.

He ordered them to remain in the Alamo to hold that position at all costs. It was his orders that kept them there - orders that shouldn't have been made.

Takes time to mobilize people to the defense of Texas. They didn't have a standing army.

It also takes time for green conscript Mexicans with overloaded supply trains to march into Texas from San Luis Potosi through the desert in winter. San Luis Potosi is closer to Mexico City than it is to Bexar and the Alamo. Contact was made at the Alamo in late February. The Mexican army had been on the move since December, 1835 and the Alamo defenders had months since Cos had been driven out to either improve the position if they'd planned to stay, or to concentrate (with Fannin's forces) and form the nucleus of Houston's army as other men joined and were trained.

What was there to divide? They mobilized and collected that way.

Uh, the existing forces in Goliad and the Alamo along with those who were being gathered around Houston's location? i.e. the Texican forces extant at the time, plus new recruits? English not your strong point? The whole runaway scrape arouse because Houston finally figured out, after squandering 500 well armed and relatively disciplined (by Texican standards), that he had to buy time and keep his forces concentrated to have a chance to pick the ground to engage Santa Anna. Too bad he hadn't figured that out before he wasted 500+ men.

As if the time they did have wasn't tough! Wow. You are seriously, the only person ever who claims that it was even remotely a fair war between the Republic of Texas and Mexico.

There is no fairness in war, moron. Ineptitude won over greater ineptitude.

Fannin couldn't even get his troops to stay in ****ing Goliad and got caught outside which didn't work well.

"Caught outside" LMAO. Fannin was ordered to retreat by Houston, after the Alamo fell. He should have been ordered back from Goliad before the Mexican army made contact, and would have had plenty of time to take the muskets and miltary stores out of Goliad. It wasn't as if Santa Anna hadn't made his intentions clear.

He was in much better shape than the defenders of the Alamo. He should have sat ****ing tight in Goliad and done his job.

He did, until he was ordered to retreat by Houston, too late. His "job" was to obey orders. He didn't decide to take a ****ing stroll on his own initiative.

Oh, right, the magic man who was invincible.

No, the competent leader who had veteran cavalry forces and actually understood how to fight, unlike Santa Anna.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Spoken from the man who already said, "It ain't queer..." We're learning more and more about you all the time. Oh, and it's 'midget', not circus freak, tyvm.

That was reg. I said "it isn't gay if its underway" which you might eventually learn, if your serviceman's discount is deep enough, is a common derogatory saying about sailors. You'd do well in a sailor town. They might even dress you in one of their outfits so you could feel "special" and make you honorary Vaseline supply orificer.

Circus freak is a promotion. I'd identify you as "carny side show freak" but decided to be nice.

[Ben Kenobi]

No, a is an offensive act of surrounding and blockading an enemy position. Sitting and allowing yourself to be encircled is stupidity.

With 189 men vs ten times as many? Not much you can do about that - other than hole up as tight as you can and smack 'em in the face with your cannon so that they decide to come and kick your ass. While they are coming to kick your ass, they aren't bypassing you to get at the important army.

Texicans lionize the Alamo and make these leaders out to be great heroes

Which is what they were. They were heroes.

He ordered them to remain in the Alamo to hold that position at all costs. It was his orders that kept them there - orders that shouldn't have been made.

Horsecrap. San Antonio was the largest Texas town. The defense was effective and accomplished what Houston wanted to do - buy time. .

It also takes time for green conscript Mexicans with overloaded supply trains to march into Texas from San Luis Potosi through the desert in winter. San Luis Potosi is closer to Mexico City than it is to Bexar and the Alamo. Contact was made at the Alamo in late February. The Mexican army had been on the move since December, 1835 and the Alamo defenders had months

Travis didn't even get to Bexar until February 3rd. He had three weeks to form up a garrison from scratch.

to concentrate (with Fannin's forces) and form the nucleus of Houston's army as other men joined and were trained.

Which, again, takes time. Which the Alamo bought for Houston. They had to get through San Antonio and Goliad to get through to Houston. Fannin probably had enough to beat the Mexicans if he had holed up in Ft. Defiance and was as successful as the folks in the Alamo.

Uh, the existing forces in Goliad and the Alamo

What 'existing forces'? Travis had 18 men at the Alamo on the 3rd of February. Fannin had several hundred at Goliad Their orders were to muster as many as possible.

Houston finally figured out, after squandering 500 well armed and relatively disciplined (by Texican standards), that he had to buy time and keep his forces concentrated

Houston fought delaying actions all the while before. That is why he told those men to defend the Alamo, to buy time.

Too bad he hadn't figured that out before he wasted 500+ men.

Fannin's orders were to defend Ft. Defiance, but his men would not follow him.

Ineptitude won over greater ineptitude.

Horsecrap. Even at Goliad prior to Fannin's surrender, the Texans fought hard and well.

Fannin was ordered to retreat by Houston, after the Alamo fell.

Fannin couldn't have got them to retreat as his men were no longer following his orders. That's why they left Goliad in the first place.

He should have been ordered back from Goliad before the Mexican army made contact, and would have had plenty of time to take the muskets and miltary stores out of Goliad. It wasn't as if Santa Anna hadn't made his intentions clear.

They weren't in Goliad. They were disorganized and in no shape to do ****.

He did, until he was ordered to retreat by Houston, too late. His "job" was to obey orders. He didn't decide to take a ****ing stroll on his own initiative.

His men did.

No, the competent leader who had veteran cavalry forces and actually understood how to fight, unlike Santa Anna.

You argued that Santa Anna was competent all the way until San Jacinto earlier. Which is it? It seems more likely to me that Santa Anna was competent, he just got whupped by Houston. But that would mean admitting that the Texas did fight bravely and fight well to win at San Jacinto, rather than pissing on them.

[Ben Kenobi]

which you might eventually learn, if your serviceman's discount is deep enough, is a common derogatory saying about sailors. You'd do well in a sailor town. They might even dress you in one of their outfits so you could feel "special" and make you honorary Vaseline supply orificer.

I'm sure you know all about that, seeing as you live in San Diego. How is business anyways?

[MichaeltheGreat]

With 189 men vs ten times as many? Not much you can do about that - other than hole up as tight as you can and smack 'em in the face with your cannon so that they decide to come and kick your ass. While they are coming to kick your ass, they aren't bypassing you to get at the important army.

Earth to Beniverse: The Mexican forces were only a few hundred until Santa Anna's main force arrived on March 4.

Which is what they were. They were heroes.

They give you a little stiffy, at least.

Horsecrap. San Antonio was the largest Texas town. The defense was effective and accomplished what Houston wanted to do - buy time. .

The town wasn't defended with the Texicans holed up inside the Alamo. The "time" was bought by Santa Anna's slow march and ineptitude.

Travis didn't even get to Bexar until February 3rd. He had three weeks to form up a garrison from scratch.

And of course, this all happened in a vacuum. He beamed down from the Starship Enterprise? If the Texicans wanted to make a defensive stand around Bexar, they had months to do so after de Cos' surrender. The fact that they squandered time and opportunity doesn't make the leadership at the subsequent fight brilliant, nor does it reflect well on the other Texican leaders. After de Cos' surrendered, they had did their collective armadillo impressions.

Which, again, takes time. Which the Alamo bought for Houston. They had to get through San Antonio and Goliad to get through to Houston. Fannin probably had enough to beat the Mexicans if he had holed up in Ft. Defiance and was as successful as the folks in the Alamo.

No, they didn't. Santa Anna's subordinates all urged him to go up to coast to permit shipborn resupply, but de Cos' was Santa Anna's brother in law, and Santa Anna decided he had to prove a point about familial manhood and "retake" what de Cos' had surrendered, when the important point was to defeat the Texican rebellion. Had Santa Anna gone up the coast in Tamaulipas instead of up through Coahuila and modern Chihuahua, he would have gotten to Houston's position faster, drove the Americans coming into the country back into Louisiania and Arkansas, then been in a position to move west to San Antonio after severing the lines of communication between Houston and the Alamo and Goliad forces.

What 'existing forces'? Travis had 18 men at the Alamo on the 3rd of February. Fannin had several hundred at Goliad Their orders were to muster as many as possible.

There's a start, plus the other reinforcements which went to and were squandered at the Alamo, etc. Consolidate and train everyone, with light recon screens to look for signs of Santa Anna's eventual approach.

Houston fought delaying actions all the while before. That is why he told those men to defend the Alamo, to buy time.

LMFAO. When and where exactly? After de Cos' surrender in 1835, the only Mexican forces in Texas were de Cos' surrendered survivors, who the Texicans stupidly let retain their muskets, so they were able to join with Santa Anna at Laredo in late December. There were no "delaying actions" to be fought before the Alamo. Are you referring to San Patricio and Agua Dulce? Those were concurrent actions fought by de Urrea against isolated local garrisons, not "delaying actions" and had no control or influence by Houston. There were plenty of delaying action afterwards though, during the "runaway scrape." Thanks for once again, flying the asshat flag of ignorance for the entire OT to see.

Fannin's orders were to defend Ft. Defiance, but his men would not follow him.

Fannin's men got fractious and rebellious during his prior inept attempts to take the war across the border into Matamoros. Something about being excessively disciplinarian, aloof, and not particularly competent didn't appeal. A West Point washout and slave trader does not a good commander or leader make. Fannin was ordered by Houston to retreat on March 14. It took him 5 days to get off his ass, with the same demonstrated knowledge of transport as in the botched Alamo relief mission, so the forces stopped in mid-afternoon in an open field to rest their grossly overloaded animals.

Horsecrap. Even at Goliad prior to Fannin's surrender, the Texans fought hard and well.
Fannin couldn't have got them to retreat as his men were no longer following his orders. That's why they left Goliad in the first place.
They weren't in Goliad. They were disorganized and in no shape to do ****.

Fought hard, maybe, but that's not the same as fighting effectively. Fight well? According to the Beniverse, I guess "fighting well" means refusing to follow orders? And doing so when disorganized and in no shape to do ****? Nice job of contradicting yourself in the same post. You truly are "special." And funny, if Fannin's troops were no longer following his orders, exactly how and why did they burn the stores they couldn't transport, (over)load up wagon, and proceed (albeit late and slowly) to move out of Presidio La Bahia under Fannin's command, pursuant to orders from Sam Houston to Fannin?

You argued that Santa Anna was competent all the way until San Jacinto earlier. Which is it? It seems more likely to me that Santa Anna was competent, he just got whupped by Houston.

You really can't read, can you? So what's your native language, Roma? Santa Anna was one of the worst military commanders in the history of this hemisphere. So "competent" in your view means having the army take a big snooze in open ground, with no sentries or pickets, no defensive preparations whatsoever? You have a need to elevate Santa Anna and the Mexican campaign in Texas to something far more than it was, so you can get a little stiffy thinking about your "he-men superheroes." Fantasize all you want, you're still a circus freak and you'll never be a Texan, just a little pet they tolerate.

[MichaeltheGreat]

I'm sure you know all about that, seeing as you live in San Diego. How is business anyways?

My business is doing fine, thank you, but I'm not some circus freak Vaseline-supply boy catering to "servicemen" with a down low fetish for freaks. I'll leave that market to you, you've got it covered.

[Sava]

[MichaeltheGreat]

This is a thread about bloated Texan egos. You need Chuck Norris, not some chink imposter.

[Alexander's Horse]

hey don't diss da man Bruce