School Shooting

[Hauldren Collider]

Seen Basic Instinct recently?

My first thought was Trotsky

[regexcellent]

The key advantage of a shotgun at close range is the fact that shot placement becomes irrelevant. You're going to hit him everywhere, so you're going to hit him in the places that matter: head, heart, lungs, central nervous system.

I can get a sight picture on a carbine much faster than on a pistol this may just be because I have very little pistol experience though.

[MichaeltheGreat]

So your point is we need AK's?

If you're going to go rambo in the boonies, yes. In home, I'd stick with .45 ACP or .357 Sig. Personally, I like Sig-Sauer over Glock, but that's just me.

Felch - a shotgun may have more of a controlling effect, and have some specific tactical use, but not as all-around useful as a standard barrel size semi-auto pistol. It depends on your specific defense scenario - if you can retreat to a defensive space and cover the entry way with a shotgun, definitely more effective. If you have to go out (say large house, kids rooms down the hall need to be secured), I'd take the pistol over the shotgun.

[MichaeltheGreat]

The key advantage of a shotgun at close range is the fact that shot placement becomes irrelevant. You're going to hit him everywhere, so you're going to hit him in the places that matter: head, heart, lungs, central nervous system.

I read years ago (pre-internet days, can't be arsed to look for an online version) that the average distance between shooter and intruder in home defense situations was 12 feet. Shotgun won't have much spread at that range unless the barrel is really short.

I can get a sight picture on a carbine much faster than on a pistol this may just be because I have very little pistol experience though.

With practice a well balanced pistol should be twice as fast.

[MichaeltheGreat]

I was under the impression that if you get hit by a shotgun at close range you're going home in a dozen ziplock bags.

If you get a full-on frontal hit, they may not find that much of you. If you're ducking around a corner and the other guy quick-fires around a corner, then the sheetrock may take most of the damage.

[Felch]

Shotgun won't have much spread at that range unless the barrel is really short.

A rifled barrel will also increase the spread, and changes the pattern from a solid circle to a donut. But the effect is less dramatic with larger shot, and it's not something I'd rely on for self defense.

[Hauldren Collider]

Shotguns are also ****ing scary. I have never heard a sound more intimidating than my brother cycling the action on his 12 gauge.

[regexcellent]

I read years ago (pre-internet days, can't be arsed to look for an online version) that the average distance between shooter and intruder in home defense situations was 12 feet. Shotgun won't have much spread at that range unless the barrel is really short.

If you get the right choke for it you can increase the spread, and even if it's only 2-3 inches at that distance that makes it much easier to hit the heart, head, or spine.

[Felch]

Shotguns are also ****ing scary. I have never heard a sound more intimidating than my brother cycling the action on his 12 gauge.

Have you heard him fire it? Your ears will ring.

[MichaeltheGreat]

If you get the right choke for it you can increase the spread, and even if it's only 2-3 inches at that distance that makes it much easier to hit the heart, head, or spine.

With a .45 or .357 Sig JHP round, you won't need to worry about that. Hydrostatic shock will cause at least equal damage and lethality.

[Hauldren Collider]

Have you heard him fire it? Your ears will ring.

Yes, but I had hearing protection, of course.

[MrFun]

Maybe police can't be counted on to protect us.

So let's not have police at all then.

[Felch]

So let's not have police at all then.

That is your approach to everything isn't it?

[molly bloom]

There are already 200 million or so firearms in the US, exclusive of government issued weapons. Even if you say, magically, that by people voluntarily surrendering them, you get 90% out of circulation (an unrealistically high amount), that still leaves 20 million, assuming no smuggling of imports. You'd acquire them the same way you acquire drugs - buy them from a private party or steal them.

But that's really just saying, it's such a big problem, do nothing. There was a will to enact Prohibition (even if some of the inspiration of the Temperance Movement came from anti-immigrant and anti-union prejudice). I know it was largely a failure, but the point is, at least it was tried.

The same goes for voting rights for women, for black Americans, the War on Poverty- simply saying that something seems like an insurmountable problem is a recipe for stagnation.

The war on terror doesn't involve (or visibly affect) the vast majority of the population.

Except for the measures that were brought in which did, even if theoretically, affect ALL of the population.

Provide a big enough bogeyman, whether it's the Pope and the 'pernicious' influence of Roman Catholics, the prospect of black Americans getting the vote, trade unions, the Red Scares of 1919, the international Jewish conspiracy, and you'll be able to convince an awful lot of otherwise sensible people to abdicate some of their civil rights and restrict those of others, especially if the measures can be seen to affect a visible or unpopular minority.

And alcohol sales are only minimally regulated (by age) and there's still plenty of drunk drivers out there.

From my experience, the U.S. seems stricter with regards to alcohol availability than here- or elsewhere in Europe. And no one seems to be keenly advocating that driving intoxicated should be a civil right.

Push comes to shove, mass killers will take a page from our Islamist friends and go for suicide vests.

I doubt this very much. I am aware that some people in the U.S. have opted for suicide by cop, for instance, but there is as far as I know, a difference in the motivations behind mass murder and self murder.

[molly bloom]

Thank God our Constitution protects both our right to bear arms, and our right to say things you disagree with.

Yeah, because the right to bear arms has saved so many Americans from arbitrary arrest and guaranteed their civil rights.

Unless of course, you count that whole denial of voting rights to African Americans. And all the other instances in American history where the government (state or national) has acted to deny American citizens their constituionally guaranteed civil rights- regardless of that 'sacred' right to bear arms.

Ignoring the spelling errors

We ignore your many lacunae and errors of fact, so in the words of Babe's neighbour Melendez in 'Marathon Man' :

Blow it out your ass, motherf*cker!