We are in the midst of the 148th anniversary of Sherman's march to the sea.

[Sava]

But the returns on those kinds of investment are readily apparent hence the historical bipartisan funding. Much less so the craptastic claims made for green energy, high speed rail, and the associated dog and cats (ie. pet projects) represented in Stimulus 2009 and the fall back claim that if you didn't support the monstrosity as a whole you didn't believe in infrastructure spending.

The benefits of paying people to do nothing exceeds the benefits of just doing nothing.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

No, the onus is on you to make a case for communism being evil. Notice you need to show that communism is evil, not just that Stalin, Mao or others were evil. I look forward to your deeply considered and thorough response.

Please stop. This argument has been as old as the boards themselves back when the dinosaurs of communism, UR, Agathon, and Che stalked these forums.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

The benefits of paying people to do nothing exceeds the benefits of just doing nothing.

No, read opportunity cost.

[Sava]

No, read opportunity cost.

The value of having millions of people fed, clothed and cared for vastly exceeds the scenario where those people cannot fend for themselves.

The private economy fails miserably at providing for people. The only worse kind of economic system is one where a single dictator uses a nation's wealth for his own purposes.

People need food, shelter, medical care, education, energy... the list goes on. Those aren't "wants". Those are needs. Absolutely the government should hand that stuff out for free.

The modern American economy is primarily service based. The greatest opportunity for growth lies in the strength of the consumer. The consumer is the fuel for the fire, so to speak. More disposable income is the pathway to growth. Stagnant wages don't lead to growth. And we've had 30 years of relatively stagnant wages because corporations are left to run wild. That financial culture has lead to our predicament.

It boggles the mind why anyone would think the economy would prosper with a weak consumer base.

A strong economy requires incredible investment. It doesn't happen on its own. It isn't free.

If, as a matter of policy, you want to choose to be worse. That's your choice. But don't try to tell the rest of us we are better off.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

All of which has very little to do with opportunity cost.

[Sava]

All of which has very little to do with opportunity cost.

First of all, the concept is simply retarded. There are too many unknowns in most situations to actually measure such a thing. Government spending is economy activity. The growth and size of the economy is measured by that activity.

For you to be correct, you have to prove that billions of dollars in the hands of many is better than billions in one person's hands. It is estimated that $15 trillion dollars is being kept out of the economy... cash sitting in a Cayman islands account... or invested in any number of unproductive assets.


"Job creators" are nothing more than leeches that suck money out of the economy. They limit economy growth. That money that could be spent in any local economy... funding actual jobs.

A successful system based on capitalist principles doesn't need to promote the acquisition of wealth. In reality, concentrations of unspent wealth hurt the economy.

[MrFun]

First of all, the concept is simply retarded. There are too many unknowns in most situations to actually measure such a thing. Government spending is economy activity. The growth and size of the economy is measured by that activity.

For you to be correct, you have to prove that billions of dollars in the hands of many is better than billions in one person's hands. It is estimated that $15 trillion dollars is being kept out of the economy... cash sitting in a Cayman islands account... or invested in any number of unproductive assets.


"Job creators" are nothing more than leeches that suck money out of the economy. They limit economy growth. That money that could be spent in any local economy... funding actual jobs.

A successful system based on capitalist principles doesn't need to promote the acquisition of wealth. In reality, concentrations of unspent wealth hurt the economy.

[Dauphin]

It is estimated that $15 trillion dollars is being kept out of the economy... cash sitting in a Cayman islands account... or invested in any number of unproductive assets.

Are you saying that the US has been given an interest free loan worth $15 trillion? Lucky them.

[MRT144]

Are you kidding? Imagine how much worse off the world would be today if even more countries had fallen?

Are you saying this with the intention of humor?

[MRT144]

I think it's pretty funny...

That's because you're a *****.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Ketchikan, Alaska's "Bridge to Nowhere" was money delineated for infrastructure.

So that's the typical case for all infrastructure projects? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

[DinoDoc]

So that's the typical case for all infrastructure projects? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

Some highlights from the last round of "stimulus:
A rail extension is to be built to get to professional sports stadiums and a casino (Pittsburgh, PA) for $62 million
A town replaces for $89,298 new sidewalks with newer sidewalks that lead to a ditch (Boynton, OK)
Bus Station Art (Los Angeles, CA) - $1 million - Source

[MrFun]

Some highlights from the last round of "stimulus:
A rail extension is to be built to get to professional sports stadiums and a casino (Pittsburgh, PA) for $62 million
A town replaces for $89,298 new sidewalks with newer sidewalks that lead to a ditch (Boynton, OK)
Bus Station Art (Los Angeles, CA) - $1 million - Source

This is a reason why we should ban all legitimate, productive infrastructure investment?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

First of all, the concept is simply retarded. There are too many unknowns in most situations to actually measure such a thing. Government spending is economy activity. The growth and size of the economy is measured by that activity.

I see... one investment activity is no better or worse than any other.

Broken widow fallacies and other self evident exercises be damned.

This in a nutshell is the issue. We have expended approximately $1 million dollars per person in the US over the course of the last three to four years intending to stimulate via governmental spending be it via the stimulus or the resulting baseline budget that followed and have nothing to show for it other than a GDP response poorer than any other modern day recessional response.
The real reason why private enterprise outperform government is that with the choice of investments comes an obligation and accountability to show return on investment i.e. it be successful. Whereas government simply on whim (and all the corruption that accompanies it) decides to do things no matter how irresponsible, private enterprise has to weigh the option carefully and ensure reutrn thresholds discounted for risk assumptions are met.

It is estimated that $15 trillion dollars is being kept out of the economy... cash sitting in a Cayman islands account... or invested in any number of unproductive assets.

Is there any wonder given the market, tax, and regulatory uncertainty?

"Job creators" are nothing more than leeches that suck money out of the economy. They limit economy growth. That money that could be spent in any local economy... funding actual jobs.

which would then be created by wait for it... job creators.

A successful system based on capitalist principles doesn't need to promote the acquisition of wealth. In reality, concentrations of unspent wealth hurt the economy.

Where in any of what I wrote did I adovcate a concentration of wealth? I want as much investment as possible but in smart areas. That is most effectively done by the private enterprise as they have consequences if they do not do so. There are no repercussions in government for boondoggles. Areas of investment that can only be managed by the government have their place but before spending monies on it it has to be a compellingly beneficial venture. If it doesn't need further illustration the last round of stimulus did not fit that category.

[DinoDoc]

This is a reason why we should ban all legitimate, productive infrastructure investment?

It's a reason not to treat such spending as a good thing in and of itself.