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  • The Impossible has Happened!

    Fox has written a reasonable column:



    A recent article on Gawker.com by Cord Jefferson suggests that we could be a more just and healing society were we to consider pedophilia a sexual orientation, rather than simply a crime. He suggests that pedophiles are born with this orientation, just as men might be born with the inherent potential to develop an attraction to adult females, or vice-versa.

    Here, Jefferson promotes a predictable (because it has been said before) and extremely dangerous claim that wanting to have sex with kids means nothing psychologically about the person who wants to. Further, it suggests that when one cannot resist having sex with a child that that person is a victim of mental illness beyond his or her control, which he or she has no responsibility to resist.

    The truth is that no one has ever been able to demonstrate that a person is born destined—genetically or neurologically—to want to have sex with children. The evidence for differences in the brains of pedophiles and those attracted to adults could easily be accounted for by traumatic life experiences of a sexual nature. We already know that trauma changes the brain. Life experience influences the function and structure of the nervous system.

    Sadly, pedophiles who won’t accept responsibility for their actions may be inappropriately seeking to “benefit” from the advances won by the gay rights movement, because that movement has asserted that homosexual behavior is pre-programmed into babies, just as heterosexual behavior is. The unscientific and rote intolerance on the part of some gay rights groups for the idea that life experience can also shape sexual orientation (that sexual orientation is fluid) plants the seeds for the same insistence by those who would prey upon children.

    I have treated many people with sexual disorders, including pedophilia. Not one of them was without extremely significant childhood trauma. I defy any mental health professional to introduce me to a pedophile whose early life experiences did not include inappropriate boundary crossings and failure of empathy by adults around that person—whether sexually violent or otherwise humiliating.

    Pedophiles, while worthy of pity because they are in fact sick, aren’t born, in my opinion. They are made by traumatic life experiences. Moreover, even once they are created, many resist their impulses because they understand what should be—but is not—obvious to all of them: Forcing oneself on a child, through assault or coercion, is morally abhorrent and illegal.

    Resisting sexual impulses is a very common occurrence. It happens billions of times a day on the planet.

    Married people do it routinely, even though they are attracted to other partners.

    People who would like to be Peeping Toms because they are sexually excited by voyeurism routinely resist acting on their desires because they understand them to be morally and legally wrong.

    Teachers attracted to teenage students routinely resist cavorting with them because they would lose their jobs and because it is wrong to indulge.

    People who might be excited by hiring prostitutes often resist because they know they would be breaking the law or because they intuit that buying sex from a young woman could be doing her psychological harm, even if she insists, otherwise.

    People attracted to their best friend’s girlfriends routinely resist because they understand that consummating the relationship would be wrong.

    Those who do not resist pedophilic desires—and who actually have sexual contact with a child (not simply looking at sexual images online, by the way, which is a matter for another column)—have made a choice. That choice is morally reprehensible and legally indefensible.

    No one alive must have sex with a child. No one is born, in fact, absolutely needing to. No evidence exists, whatsoever, that the brain at birth is different in pedophiles than in the rest of the population. And treatments do exist that can dramatically reduce pedophilic impulses—including the use of Depo-Provera injections, which tank testosterone levels.

    The elevation of pedophilia to sexual orientation clears the way for more of it. And Cord Jefferson conspires with that potential with his writings.
    You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

  • #2
    I don't see how it matters whether pedophilia is innate or formed later in life (nature or nurture). It's wrong to act on it because it hurts people who cannot protect themselves, clearly, so no matter the source it must be illegal; and from a treatment point of view, whether it is natural or not, it can be treated the same - a combination of teaching people not to act on their desires (not necessarily because the desire itself is bad somehow - frankly that is irrelevant - but the act would be; similarly, eating a Twinkie is bad for you, but _wanting_ to is not) and chemically helping them (testosterone treatments if needed, or more traditional mental health aids like SSRIs), along with treating any trauma that existed in the past.

    I don't think it's wrong to have the conversation Cord wanted to encourage. I think _everything_ is more complicated than people usually make it out to be, pedophilia included. And if the current treatment focuses entirely on psychological issues, and there are possibly hormonal issues that are equally important, then discussing those is important, too. The writer of the OP's article seems pretty closed minded, using rhetorical flourishes like "Not one of them was without..." which is frankly irrelevant (not only does the OP's writer have a necessarily limited sample size, but he also is undoubtedly sometimes guilty of has-hammer-sees-nail as well. Psychologists will always find past trauma, because everyone on this planet has some sort of trauma in their past (whether it be rape or abuse as a child, or bullying, or not being allowed to have ice cream after dinner).

    Finally, the OP's writer clearly didn't even really read the article. The article went in depth in explaining why the term 'orientation' is important. It's not an attempt at making it seem 'okay', or at avoiding the fact that some pedophiles do terrible things to children. It also does not attempt to cover nearly all who commit child sexual abuse - the article notes only about 20% of abusers are true pedophiles (ie, they have a specific and sole preference for undeveloped children). What it does say is that imprisoning people for long amounts of time in an attempt to change their minds is idiotic, just like you can't "pray the gay away". You need to take a different approach.

    "Viewing pedophilia as a sexual orientation would suggest that treatment is more likely to be effective if it focuses on self-regulation skills (in order to effectively manage pedophilic urges, thoughts, etc.) than on trying to change sexual preferences."


    That doesn't sound particularly bad, does it? That sounds eminently reasonable, in fact. Treat it like a mental illness rather than solely punishing people - I don't think there's anything wrong with imprisoning them, for example, but do so in a mental institution rather than a normal prison. Keep them there until a doctor is satisfied they will be able to self-manage, and then keep them on probation. Above all, make the treatment humane and reasonable - perhaps some pedophiles will come forward *before* committing an act of child abuse and get treatment, rather than trying to suppress their urges on their own.
    <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
    I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

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    • #3
      What Snoopy said. Legalization of homosexuality isn't necessarily because of its an innate orientation (though that tends to help sway people), but because you have two consenting adults engaging in non-harmful activity.
      “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
      - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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      • #4
        Keep them there until a doctor is satisfied they will be able to self-manage
        So lifetime imprisonment? I'd be OK with that.

        Seriously though, who really cares if it is an orientation or not? It matters very little.
        I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
        For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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        • #5
          Why not one adult and a horse, then? Or three adults?
          Graffiti in a public toilet
          Do not require skill or wit
          Among the **** we all are poets
          Among the poets we are ****.

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          • #6
            Three adults having intercourse is perfectly legal (or should be if there are still silly backwards states who don't permit it). The reason for not having group marriages is simple - the tax and other financial side. There's no reason whatsoever to deny two men or women the same financial benefits as one man and one woman (particularly when gay/lesbian couples can and frequently do adopt or have surrogate/etc. children). However, group marriages would mean a third person gets subsidized healthcare and such, which would really throw off the cost calculations - and open things up to abuse as well. In the long run I'm not sure that's really all that big of a hurdle to overcome, but the way things are structured now it wouldn't fly. (Honestly I'm not sure why we have benefits for being married now - in the 1800s it made sense with women not working, but nowadays I think they're unneeded.)

            One man and a horse is illegal for the same reason as pedophilia is. The horse can't give consent.

            Dinodoc, lifetime confinement for people who can't control their urges, but certainly plenty can. Just like the OP said, there are lots of people who would love to have sex with all sorts of other people but control those urges just fine; are you going to imprison all heterosexual males because of a few rapists? There is a spectrum of pedophiles just like there is a spectrum of heterosexual males. Some control it, and should be allowed to roam free; some don't, and should not be.
            <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
            I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by snoopy369 View Post
              Dinodoc, lifetime confinement for people who can't control their urges, but certainly plenty can. Just like the OP said, there are lots of people who would love to have sex with all sorts of other people but control those urges just fine; are you going to imprison all heterosexual males because of a few rapists? There is a spectrum of pedophiles just like there is a spectrum of heterosexual males. Some control it, and should be allowed to roam free; some don't, and should not be.
              I think once they come to the attention of law enforcement, we're well past hoping for them to control their perversion and deviancy.
              I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
              For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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              • #8
                Originally posted by DinoDoc View Post
                I think once they come to the attention of law enforcement, we're well past hoping for them to control their perversion and deviancy.
                Not true at all. Have you ever eaten a bag of cookies? Did your mother find you and tell you it was wrong, and you shouldn't eat a bag of cookies anymore? Some people learn to control themselves when given help (either psychological help or medical - Chantix patches for pedophiles, say). Painting everyone with a broad brush is a mistake - the point of the article, after all...
                <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
                I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by snoopy369 View Post
                  Painting everyone with a broad brush is a mistake - the point of the article, after all...
                  I'm perfectly comfortable painting pedophiles who abuse children with this brush as they are unlikely to have had only one victim before they were caught. I've also seen no reason to view using that brush to paint them with as a mistake. Nor do I see any reason to feel sympathy for them as the Gawker article wants.
                  I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                  For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Seriously though, who really cares if it is an orientation or not? It matters very little.
                    It matters quite a bit, as the very next thing that would be argued is that they don't have a choice and that confinement is 'discrimination' or somesuch.
                    Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                    "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
                      It matters quite a bit, as the very next thing that would be argued is that they don't have a choice and that confinement is 'discrimination' or somesuch.
                      Indeed: 11-Year-Old Gang Rape Victim Accused Of Being Seductive Men-Luring Spider By Lawyer
                      Last edited by DinoDoc; November 29, 2012, 13:12.
                      I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                      For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Sn00py, have you ever worked with paedophiles before?
                        Last edited by Krill; November 29, 2012, 15:08.
                        You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

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                        • #13
                          One of the issues is that acting on pedophilia is a terrible crime. It does a lot of damage.

                          Another issue is that it is difficult to stop it from happening and to catch such a criminal. We don't (and I am glad that we don't) have effective monitoring.

                          JM
                          Jon Miller-
                          I AM.CANADIAN
                          GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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                          • #14
                            So basically, in general we don't punish things heavily and expect people to change their behavior for things which are relatively easy to catch and do relatively little damage (theft).

                            When the damage is great, especially when it is linked to a difficulty in catching the perpetrator, then punishment should be significant.

                            JM
                            Jon Miller-
                            I AM.CANADIAN
                            GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jon Miller View Post
                              We don't (and I am glad that we don't) have effective monitoring.

                              JM
                              Which raises the question how pervasive is the problem?
                              "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

                              “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

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