**** the debates

[DaShi]

Asher, you're arguing with a mule. He's not interested in fact or reason. He'll only respond with "No" or personal attacks. Outside of one niche, Ogie has no demonstrable knowledge.

[DaShi]

[Ben Kenobi]

It's a very pathetic argument to blame "poor leadership" when it's clear the GOP was the cause of the problem with their petulant attitude and tantrums.

Conservative for Canada = Liberal Democrat.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Look at the timelines of when the Dems had enough healthy people present to vote.

Thats a meaningless bit of trivia in this case. Debt Ceiling passage was always an option via reconciliation wherein the 60 votes senate cloture was a non issue. All that ever was required if the Dems truly wanted it done was a simple Senate majority and a reconciled bill.

Further it is interesting to recall, the real stonewalling happened when the Senate Dems as a party line vote decided to play chicken with the credit default, not the Pubs.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul...-vote-20110729

[giblets]

If the midterm elections were the issue why not do it during the lame duck session?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

If the midterm elections were the issue why not do it during the lame duck session?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...WFbI_blog.html

This and Nancy was in morning.

[giblets]

The blog post says it was part of some kind of stimulus deal? But you're saying they could have just used reconciliation? I'm a little confused. Or are Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi simply insane?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

The blog post says it was part of some kind of stimulus deal? But you're saying they could have just used reconciliation? I'm a little confused. Or are Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi simply insane?

The blog references sensitive legislation that no one wanted not passing and hanging around their proverbial necks. Namely passage of extension of Bush tax rates.

[kentonio]

An apt description of Obama and his reactions to Boehner. Further it is not clear that the GOP was the cause of the problem, the case is stronger for it being the Dems problem.

Ridiculous revisionism.

2) Misunderstood the freshmen resolve to stand true to their campaign mandate. Chose not to tack to the center ala Clinton.

The GOP were patenting their new tactic of pushing so hard to the right that the 'centre' was squarely in traditional GOP territory. By 'compromising' the Democrats would basically have been sacrificing their entire party position in favour of a GOP one. The disgusting thing is that they actually fell for it. When you look at the offers being made my the Dems at that time, they were a Republicans wet dream. If the GOP had had even an ounce of common sense, they'd have bitten the Dems hand off and taken a deal that was wildly better than they could have sensibly expected. Instead they held on for everything and lost.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Further it is not clear that the GOP was the cause of the problem

[DinoDoc]

In his defense, Obama did play a rather large part in blowing up the "Grand Bargain" with Boehner.

[Imran Siddiqui]

It was never clear that Boehner could get his Tea Party Reps on board to any Grand Bargain.

[DinoDoc]

We never got to that point due to the President deciding to blow it up himself.

[molly bloom]

It's like I'm from another planet!

Have you seen 'The Brother From Another Planet' ? It's funnier than you, but perhaps you're on to something... or perhaps it's just the effect living in Philadelphia has on you.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

It was never clear that Boehner could get his Tea Party Reps on board to any Grand Bargain.

All the more reason an amateur negoatiator like Obama shouldn't have pushed the envelope knowing Boehner was already treading in dangerous waters.