I've come to a conclusion that I'm against gay marriage.

[Wiglaf]

Homosexuality is obviously a sexual deviation no different from polygamy, incest or bestiality, but more importantly yes, everything homosexuals want is a privilege, not a right. It seems like no one understands what rights are anymore. I'm guessing it is because society is so advanced, and we have all sorts of options now in terms of air travel, home appliances, schools, etc. that we just think it's our right to have whatever we think we should have.

The day that I am married to my partner, should he die before me, I want to be able to visit him when he's on his deathbed.

"I want it = It's my right." It's endemic and it needs to stop.

[Lonestar]

Wiggles, the DC Polymeet is in an hour and a half.

You better show your ****ing face.

[Asher]

I've been pro gay marriage for several years, but reading Poly has caused me to reassess my views.
Gay cohabitation is not a problem: no one will send you to jail if you live with your homosexual partner and call him your husband. You have every right to do that. I'm not against churches recognizing your cohabitation as a marriage. What I am against is the recognition of your marriage by the state, which is what most gay couples actually want.
When your cohabitation is recognized as a marriage, you get all sorts of benefits: you are included in the default inheritance order, pay less taxes, get hospital visitation rights, etc. But getting these benefits is not your right, it's a privilege. Why should the government provide these benefits to you but not other sexual deviants?
Yes, homosexuality is a sexual devitation, like polygamy, pedophilia and zoophilia. You cannot even claim that homosexuality is different because both partners are consenting adults. Polygamists are also consenting adults, yet they have zero official recognition. Why should only homosexuality be elevated to the same level of recognition as the sexual norm? It already enjoys the benefit of legality.

What is a "deviation"? Something that is not the majority? Are interracial marriages also not a deviation?

Why the **** should that factor into your decision?

Polygamy (arguably), pedophilia, and zoophilia (bestiality?) all have victims. Homosexuality does not.

In nature - not just humans - coupling is seen as a means of survival. Couples are not just of different sexes, but sometimes of the same sex, too. There are mental health benefits, financial benefits, and social benefits to having a partner. Those benefits should not be only enjoyed by people who **** the opposite sex.

I don't care about the *******s who ***** about "rights" vs "privileges" - that's specific to your own ****ed up countries. In Canada, gays have the right to marry.

If your country doesn't, then that's a flaw of your country. Don't pretend it's any different or that it matters to those in civilized countries any way.

[MrFun]

Asher gets it, Wiggy doesn't.

[Ben Kenobi]

The day that I am married to my partner, should he die before me, I want to be able to visit him when he's on his deathbed.

Christ.

It's called 'power of attorney'.

I'm not even an American, but I have mine all set up and legally witnessed so that if anything should happen to me, the people that I want to make these decisions can make them, visit me, whatever.

If I can get that set up, then what's the problem, Mr. Fun?

[Ben Kenobi]

There are mental health benefits, financial benefits, and social benefits to having a partner. Those benefits should not be only enjoyed by people who **** the opposite sex.

So you're claiming that unless the state provides recognition for your relationship that these benefits don't exist?

[Asher]

So you're claiming that unless the state provides recognition for your relationship that these benefits don't exist?

I'd be interested in hearing you explain how I could do a spousal RRSP transfer without legal recognition by the state.

[Asher]

Christ.

It's called 'power of attorney'.

I'm not even an American, but I have mine all set up and legally witnessed so that if anything should happen to me, the people that I want to make these decisions can make them, visit me, whatever.

If I can get that set up, then what's the problem, Mr. Fun?

Probably because it's well known that the power of attorney does not trump family in all cases.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/how-hospitals-treat-same-sex-couples/

eg,

A woman from Washington collapsed while on vacation in Miami. Although her partner had documentation of her relationship and a power of attorney, she claims hospital officials told her she wasn’t a family member under Florida law. The woman spent hours talking with hospital personnel in an effort to visit her partner’s bedside. Although she eventually prevailed, her partner’s condition had already deteriorated and the woman died. Because of the problem, the children the patient had adopted and been raising with her partner weren’t able to see her before she died.

...

While heterosexual couples typically don’t have to provide marriage licenses to hospitals in order to prove they are husband and wife, same sex couples often must document their relationship to hospital officials before being allowed to take part in a partner’s care.

“There is a real disconnect between what might be a good written policy or state law and actual implementation of that policy or law,” said Ellen Kahn, family project director for the HRC. “If you’re presenting as two men in a couple and you say, ‘This is my partner. I’ll make medical decisions,’ you’re asked a lot of questions. Who is this person to you? Do you have legal documentation that verifies that? A parent, sister or nephew could have more rights under the law than a same-sex partner who has been together 20 years.”

Also..

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2011/05/24/why-a-power-of-attorny-is-no-substitute-for-marriage-when-a-loved-one-is-in-the-hospital/

The “other ways,” as I understand it, are legal papers: health care proxies, power of attorney, and so forth. But in practice, lesbian and gay couples have found again and again that legal papers aren’t reliable when they’re needed most.

For example, Sharon Reed and JoAnn Ritchie, partners for 17 years, had mutual power of attorney when JoAnn went to the hospital; they even had the paperwork with them. That didn’t keep a nurse who disapproved of lesbian relationships from refusing Sharon access to JoAnn’s room and bedside. JoAnn’s final conscious hours were spent without Sharon; by the time Sharon was allowed back into the room, the next day, JoAnn couldn’t be revived. JoAnn died not long after.

Another example: Janice Langbehn and Lisa Marie Pond and their children were on vacation in Florida when Lisa had an aneurysm. They each had granted the other power of attorney, but the Florida hospital chose not to recognize it for eight hours. For eight hours, Lisa lay dying alone in the hospital, while her spouse and children were forbidden contact with her. The usual counseling services that the hospital routinely provides for relatives of dying patients, were not offered to Lisa’s family. “Jackson Memorial social worker Defendant Frederick approached Janice and informed her that she should not expect to be provided any information on the condition of, or have the ability to be with Lisa Marie as they were in an ‘anti-gay city and state.’”

There are many more examples. Kristin Orbin and Teresa Rowe. Sharon Kowalski and Karen Thompson. Carol Conklin and Janet Peck. Bill Flanigan and Robert Daniel. Trey and Guy. Steve, forced into a sham marriage with a woman who robbed him, just to have control of his own medical treatment.

According to lgbt rights advocate Carissa Cunningham, these are not rare, isolated examples. “It’s very routine. It happens all the time.”

Andrew Sullivan writes:

When people talk about marriage as some kind of abstract matter, an interesting debate to be had, an issue to be discussed, they forget the actual, brutal consequences of laws that treat gay families as non-families and gay people as sub-human.

Heterosexuals have the luxury of believing that same-sex couples can just sign some legal papers printed out from a website and — poof! — the problems disappear. But the real-life experience of same sex couples show that legal papers are not a reliable solution when a loved one is critically ill. Trey writes:

Nearly everyone I know has a story of denied visitation rights, or ‘family’ swooping down and forcing health decisions against a partner’s wishes or contesting (often successfully) wills, or even walking into shared homes and taking things out. There almost isn’t a gay or lesbian couple (ok, i’m sure there are a few, somewhere) out there that doesn’t at least occasionally wonder or are concerned about one of their family members (we have one in our family) who would make life hell for the partner if their ‘family’ member became sick or died.. taking away health decisions or making life impossible after losing their loved one. The fact of the matter is, courts and law STILL overwhelmingly favors ‘blood’ relatives or ‘married’ spouses over the partners of gays and lesbians. Even wills and legal documents are superseded by ‘family’ law in many cases.

From the Florida Sun-Sentinal:

Wills, power of attorney papers and cohabitation agreements can create some protections of marriage. For $1,500 to $3,500 in legal bills, gay couples can guarantee they have the right to visit each other in the hospital, that property is split equitably if they break up and that the surviving partner inherits when the other dies.

Attorneys say such legal documents, which can be challenged in court, provide only the bare bones of the security that comes with marriage.

“Lawyers can only fashion remedies in haphazard ways,” said Dean Trantalis, a Fort Lauderdale city commissioner and gay rights activist who draws up such documents as part of his law practice. “The law uses marriage as a guideline to provide rights and impose responsibilities. There is an undue burden on same-sex couples.” …

One of the primary functions of marriage is to make two unrelated adults into close kin; that creates mutual responsibilities, but it also makes a family that courtrooms, police, hospitals and other crucial institutions of society are obliged to acknowledge. Right now, heterosexuals are able to point to their life partner and say “this person, this person here – s/he’s now my closest family in the world, for all legal purposes” and (99.99% of the time) make it stick. Lesbians and gays don’t have that right. And real-life experience shows that the ability to write up a personalized contract is no match for being a legally recognized family.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'd be interested in hearing you explain how I could do a spousal RRSP transfer without legal recognition by the state.

Ahh, I see. So you're *****ing because of a government benefit.

Pull it out of the RRSP. Problem solved.

[loinburger]

The problem is that even if gay marriage were legalized, hospitals in Florida and in other awful states would still prevent same-sex partners from visiting each other.

[Ben Kenobi]

Probably because it's well known that the power of attorney does not trump family in all cases.

Oh, so you aren't asking for equal rights, but rather special rights then.

she claims hospital officials told her she wasn’t a family member under Florida law.

She probably didn't bother setting it up in the first place, and it took time to get it all sorted out.

Although she eventually prevailed, her partner’s condition had already deteriorated and the woman died.

So she did get to see her. Problem solved.

A parent, sister or nephew could have more rights under the law than a same-sex partner who has been together 20 years.

Then get it set up and properly witnessed well ahead of time. I have family as well, and yes, it took time to get things all set up with them. But it's all done now.

by the time Sharon was allowed back into the room, the next day, JoAnn couldn’t be revived. JoAnn died not long after.

So she was let in and did get to see her. That's 2 down.

chose not to recognize it for eight hours.

Can they prove this, or did it simply take time to get things straightened out? Three down.

Sometimes **** happens, Asher. My mother did not get to see my father before he passed away. None of us did.

[Ben Kenobi]

The problem is that even if gay marriage were legalized, hospitals in Florida and in other awful states would still prevent same-sex partners from visiting each other.

This is a complete myth. Asher's examples all demonstrate that yes, they were all permitted to visit.

[Asher]

Oh, so you aren't asking for equal rights, but rather special rights then.

Yes, Ben.

Asking for the same rights and privileges as heterosexual couples is asking for special rights. No one in the history of the world had unquestioned hospital access to their loved ones before those pesky gay couples started asking for SPECIAL, ONE OF A KIND rights.

You're an idiot, a bigot, a dumbass, and in all likelihood a psychopath.

[Asher]

This is a complete myth. Asher's examples all demonstrate that yes, they were all permitted to visit.

What the ****?

You SERIOUSLY think no gay couple has ever been prevented from visiting their partner in hospital?

And even in those handful of cases I sighted, in some cases they were permitted visitation BUT ONLY AFTER EIGHT HOURS OF ARGUMENTS AND THE PARTNER HAD DIED. Even then they were not granted the other services heterosexual couples warrant, like counseling.

You are such a callous *****.

[regexcellent]

Ben Kenobi has the wrong reason for being opposed to gay marriage. The correct reason is disgust at our ridiculous 21st century culture of entitlement.