Dark Knight Rises

[Wiglaf]

You're going to blow up tanks and stealth bombers with your AR-15 and handguns? Really?

What a stupid argument. We had tanks and stealth bombers in Iraq, too, and we couldn't get out of there fast enough. Or are you going to tell me the Iraqi insurgents didn't need assault rifles?

[Hauldren Collider]

In any case, America is largely ungovernable now. At some people people need to realize the experiment failed -- America is no longer a leader in anything worth striving for. It's an example of squandered opportunity.

[Al B. Sure!]

Asher is a self-hating half-American.

You renounce that American citizenship yet, Asher?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Disregarding the entirety of the trollish nature of the prevelance or US arms and 2nd Amendment discussions, the one isssue touched on by Asher that warrants further consideration is the threshold of (in)sane behavior before institutionalization (as opposed to simply preventing purchase of arms).

It has been reported that the degree to which individuals represent a danger to society and the threshold for psychiatric insitutionalization has dramatically risen. If so why and what is a reasonable non knee jerk response?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

With a hat tip to Felch, I again suggest ending the war on drugs for its drain on the penal system.

[Wiglaf]

What gives you the idea there is a drain on the penal system?

[Asher]

Asher is a self-hating half-American.

You renounce that American citizenship yet, Asher?

Yes.

The American government was about to steal my money.

[Elok]

This is a pretty old argument here. Briefly,

1. IIRC, both Iraq and Afghanistan were awash in guns under their respective tyrants, long before we showed up.
2. Again IIRC, in both countries our main enemies were not handheld firearms but IEDs, heavy weapons and a slew of related nonmilitary factors--such as our mission being "force this country to self-govern in a way they don't particularly like."
3. I have a hard time envisioning a situation wherein a tyrannical U.S. government is legitimately threatened by handheld firearms. At best, they'd be a minor factor, especially if the government retains control of lines of communication.

[rah]

The only fear would be if the "rebels" have guns and are using them, then guns are an appropriate choice for response. Now you get into the old, will all of our soldiers be willing to fire on civilians, even if they are armed.

[SlowwHand]

At some point, civilians with guns are not merely civilians.

[Elok]

The only fear would be if the "rebels" have guns and are using them, then guns are an appropriate choice for response. Now you get into the old, will all of our soldiers be willing to fire on civilians, even if they are armed.

If they're actively attacking the regime, or firing on soldiers performing anything close to legitimate duties, they're not civilians. The degree of sympathy soldiers will have depends largely on how effectively the rebels can get their message out--the first amendment is our real protector. If we want guns, it's not like it's incredibly hard to get illegal merchandise under a dictatorship. Got booze, pot, porn or expensive consumer goods? Got an army base nearby with a bored commander? Congratulations, you've got yourself some guns. What you won't get is radio time, or unmonitored internet access.

[rah]

At some point. But yes, of course it depends on the circumstances.

[Al B. Sure!]

This is a pretty old argument here. Briefly,

1. IIRC, both Iraq and Afghanistan were awash in guns under their respective tyrants, long before we showed up.
2. Again IIRC, in both countries our main enemies were not handheld firearms but IEDs, heavy weapons and a slew of related nonmilitary factors--such as our mission being "force this country to self-govern in a way they don't particularly like."
3. I have a hard time envisioning a situation wherein a tyrannical U.S. government is legitimately threatened by handheld firearms. At best, they'd be a minor factor, especially if the government retains control of lines of communication.

What do you consider heavy weapons? RPG-7's and AK's, the mainstays of guerilla warfare, are handheld and very common globally. Not common in the US, though.

The government has already banned the best weapons to resist the government with.

[regexcellent]

Iraqi insurgents, like most insurgents, got their weapons from foreign states. We have enough weapons at home to not need to get them from state sponsorship. Most of the time an insurgency needs a base of operations across an international border to operate effectively, in order to train and rearm. In the United States, a very large contingent of the population is already armed and trained.

In any case, the question of whether an insurgency would succeed is not the correct one; that's just throwing in the towel.

Some interesting quotes by the Constitution's and the Second Amendment's authors:

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." -Thomas Jefferson

"The constitutions of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves;
that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property and freedom
of the press." -also Thomas Jefferson

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin (this is a particularly famous one)

"That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and therefore ought to be avoided as far as the circumstances and protection of the community will admit; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power." -George Mason's original proposal for the Second Amendment.

(sorry about inconsistent formatting; stuff was copy-pasted)

[MOBIUS]

Do you think it will be safe to see Dark Knight in Cardiff tomorrow? I've been scared because obviously it is so dangerous and violent here! I could be mistaken for a sheep or aggressively sworn at in Welsh...

Still, there will be police guarding the cinema as it's next to the Millennium Stadium and that's on lock down for the start of the Olympics here on Wednesday!

Is it a good movie, or should I save my $3...?