Homosexuality Will Cease to Exist Someday

[dannubis]

Damn.... Did Albie just make sense ?

[Aeson]

There are also benefits to being gay... No unwanted pregnancies. Having similar sexual desires and cycles as your partner. Better understanding of what your partner experiences. To pretend that you can predict whether a gay person would have been happier being straight is completely absurd. Whether any specific individual would be or not is going to depend heavily on their other personality traits, what they value...

As for observably more difficult adolescence, that's not clear, nor in specific cases where there is difficulty is it clear that it is due just to sexuality. Not to mention it is not clear that a difficult adolescence leads to a more unhappy live overall. Difficulties early in life can create strength of character and an greater appreciation for the good things later in life.

[Kuciwalker]

Now do the same thing but with the child being born Black or white.

You of course come to the same answer. What of it?

Don't many people argue that even today being born black puts a child at an inherent disadvantage in life? Isn't the logical conclusion that, were the same child born white instead, he would not have that disadvantage?

[Kuciwalker]

There are also benefits to being gay... No unwanted pregnancies. Having similar sexual desires and cycles as your partner. Better understanding of what your partner experiences. To pretend that you can predict whether a gay person would have been happier being straight is completely absurd.

Good thing I'm not doing that then! See again "in expectation", which I have consistently used.

[Aeson]

To equate advantage/disadvantage (or easy/difficult life) to happy/unhappy is where you're completely at odds with reality.

[Kuciwalker]

If the disadvantages black people face don't make them unhappy then why does anyone care?

[Kuciwalker]

Imagine that people weren't semi-randomly assigned to be gay or straight (or black or white). Rather, all babies are born with a little switch on their head that can be turned left or right. Left = gay, right = straight. The baby doesn't actually turn into a living child until you flip the switch. What rule would you use to decide which direction to flip the switch. Always left? Always right? Flip a coin?

[Aeson]

Good thing I'm not doing that then! See again "in expectation", which I have consistently used.

I am addressing your point as "in expectation". You want to pretend that there's some sort of evidence that a gay person can be expected to be more unhappy than a straight person, and you want to attribute this to the gay person being gay. You clearly don't understand that having difficulties in life does not equate to being unhappier overall.

[Kuciwalker]

Many gay people report that these difficulties make them unhappy. Introspection suggests that I would also be unhappy if I were treated in the way that many straight people treat gay people. I'm on solid epistemological ground here.

[Aeson]

Imagine that people weren't semi-randomly assigned to be gay or straight (or black or white). Rather, all babies are born with a little switch on their head that can be turned left or right. Left = gay, right = straight. The baby doesn't actually turn into a living child until you flip the switch. What rule would you use to decide which direction to flip the switch. Always left? Always right? Flip a coin?

I would leave the choice up to the parents in that case. There's no evidence to suggest that flipping the switch one way or the other would lead to a better result... but there is great evidence to suggest that one person forcing that onto everyone else will be met with a great deal of discontent about the situation.

[Aeson]

Many gay people report that these difficulties make them unhappy. Introspection suggests that I would also be unhappy if I were treated in the way that many straight people treat gay people. I'm on solid epistemological ground here.

Many straight people report that gay people are on the verge of ruining their marriages.

You still don't seem to understand that specific instances of unhappiness do not necessarily equate to a less happy life. Often they are a requirement for a truly happy life.

You're just hanging your myopic hat on one factor so that you can pretend you know something that's unknowable.

[Kuciwalker]

I would leave the choice up to the parents in that case.

What if the parent came to you for advice? What if you were the parent?

There's no evidence to suggest that flipping the switch one way or the other would lead to a better result...

To the contrary, I have presented substantial evidence that flipping the switch to the right would lead to a better result in expectation.

but there is great evidence to suggest that one person forcing that onto everyone else will be met with a great deal of discontent about the situation.

Strawman. No one has advocated forcible conversion here. DriXnak merely observed that parents would voluntarily flip the switch to the right in order to provide the most happiness to their child.

[Kuciwalker]

Many straight people report that gay people are on the verge of ruining their marriages.

Hardly.

You still don't seem to understand that specific instances of unhappiness do not necessarily equate to a less happy life. Often they are a requirement for a truly happy life.

I have heard many gay people express wishes that the instances of unhappiness stop. I've heard very few who say they are glad for the instances of unhappiness. Moreover, if we really thought these instances of unhappiness lead (in the long run) to a happier life then we wouldn't want to end homophobia. Efforts to end homophobia would be bad because they would deny gay people the chance of earning a happy life through suffering!

You're just hanging your myopic hat on one factor so that you can pretend you know something that's unknowable.

If the answer is unknowable then what's wrong with turning everyone straight? Do you think that the natural proportion of straight and gay people is likely to be more optimal than any other proportion?

Your entire position is status quo bias.

[Kuciwalker]

These responses were, of course, entirely predictable. Post #10 sounds like various suggestions by homophobes that we ought to be mean to gay people because gayness is bad for them and it will convince them to convert. It sounds like those, but only an idiot would actually confuse it for one. Unfortunately, Apolyton has a lot of idiots and as I expected it brought them out of the woodwork.

[Aeson]

What if the parent came to you for advice? What if you were the parent?

I would curse the dungeon master and roll a d20 to "save" against the gay. 1-19 and you're straight. (So about 5%, which IIRC is ~ the natural ratio.)

To the contrary, I have presented substantial evidence that flipping the switch to the right would lead to a better result in expectation.

You haven't presented any evidence. You've made some oblique references to some evidence you haven't shown.

Strawman. No one has advocated forcible conversion here.

You asked what rule I would create that would be applied before children could be born. I stated the obvious problem with anyone (myself included) being tasked with that responsibility. It takes what is essentially a blameless situation and ensures the blame for any negative perceptions from the rule (even if misperceptions) will be harbored against the rule creator.