2nd Level German Court: Circumcision illegal

[Jon Miller]

Yet here we are, today, largely a result of ~2000 years of Christianity.

JM

[Kidlicious]

Except that after the bible, people didn't have God personally directing their actions, so from then on they only had the guidance of the bible. It hardly seems unlikely that they would shape their actions based on the lessons of the book. Commiting genocide against a religious foe would then seem pretty reasonable. This isn't theoretical stuff, it's exactly what actually happened in a host of religious wars which killed millions of people.

You're twisting the words in the bible to fit your purposes. People often do that. As I said, the bible doesn't tell people to commit genocide. Have you ever heard, "Thou shalt not murder?"

[Kidlicious]

Actually we have the historical example of thousands of years of *******ry from Christians which proves exactly how negative it was. I'm not talking about you modern Christians now of course (although some even today are pretty terrifying), but go back through the history of the church and we see countless atrocities, murders, wars and tortures carried out in Gods name by people who genuinely thought they were doing Gods work. Which is why I give very little credence to the idea that Gods plan was to drip feeding information to people as they were ready for it. If that was the plan, then it was a ****ing awful one.

So you think you can run the universe better than God? You're a bit ful of yourself don't you think?

How do you know those people really thought they were doing God's will? Human beings are very complex creatures. Just because they say something doesn't mean they believe it.

[kentonio]

Yet here we are, today, largely a result of ~2000 years of Christianity.

JM

I don't see your point. We (presumably meaning the western world) are here today largely as a result of exploiting the planet and enslaving and pillaging the wealth of weaker nations, usually justified in biblical terms. Ends justify the means?

[kentonio]

You're twisting the words in the bible to fit your purposes. People often do that. As I said, the bible doesn't tell people to commit genocide. Have you ever heard, "Thou shalt not murder?"

No I haven't heard "Thou shalt not murder", I have however heard "Thou shalt not kill". Something that seems a little vague after God personally commanded humans to commit genocide and mass killings.

So you think you can run the universe better than God? You're a bit ful of yourself don't you think?

As I think god is a fairy story, that means absolutely nothing to me.

How do you know those people really thought they were doing God's will? Human beings are very complex creatures. Just because they say something doesn't mean they believe it.

So you're conveniently suggesting that the hundreds of thousands of Christians who did bad things were not real Christians? How very, very handy for you. Complete nonsense of course, many of them were far more religiously fundamentalist than you or anyone you've ever met, men and women who would literally die, kill, torture, maim and enslave in the absolute belief that they were obeying the word of a God they truly believed in.

[Jon Miller]

I don't see your point. We (presumably meaning the western world) are here today largely as a result of exploiting the planet and enslaving and pillaging the wealth of weaker nations, usually justified in biblical terms. Ends justify the means?

It is following Christianity that has brought us to the more advanced ethical state we are now (to recognize things like genocide/etc).

And yes, sometimes humanity makes a step back (Crusades, dehumanizing slavery (which is very different from slavery in the ancient world)), but still our journey through Christianity has been a very positive one.

JM

[Jon Miller]

So you're conveniently suggesting that the hundreds of thousands of Christians who did bad things were not real Christians? How very, very handy for you. Complete nonsense of course, many of them were far more religiously fundamentalist than you or anyone you've ever met, men and women who would literally die, kill, torture, maim and enslave in the absolute belief that they were obeying the word of a God they truly believed in.

You continually show that you have no understanding of Christianity, nor really religion. Nor really humans.

You claim to be open minded or someone who searches for truth? Why do you deny the actions and words of millions? Why do you deny history?

JM

[kentonio]

It is following Christianity that has brought us to the more advanced ethical state we are now (to recognize things like genocide/etc).

And yes, sometimes humanity makes a step back (Crusades, dehumanizing slavery (which is very different from slavery in the ancient world)), but still our journey through Christianity has been a very positive one.

Bull****, that's the same mealy mouthed crap that was used to justify colonialism.

You continually show that you have no understanding of Christianity, nor really religion. Nor really humans.

You claim to be open minded or someone who searches for truth? Why do you deny the actions and words of millions? Why do you deny history?

Yes Jon, that's absolutely correct. History has clearly shown us that Christianity and the other major religions have been a force for shining good, and that anyone who points to the tens of millions of deaths, the wars, the burnings, the rapes, the vicious conquests, the tortures and inquisitions, the pogroms, the enslavements and the rest is in fact an uneducated bigot who just has no understanding of such lofty matters.

[Kidlicious]

No I haven't heard "Thou shalt not murder", I have however heard "Thou shalt not kill". Something that seems a little vague after God personally commanded humans to commit genocide and mass killings.

Then you don't really understand what Jesus meant when he said, "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone." You just have a real lack of understanding of this subject matter and nothing can be done about that.

As I think god is a fairy story, that means absolutely nothing to me.

Because you're being obtuse. Let me put it to you like this. Why do you think you should be able to run the universe? You obviously think you know the correct way to do it. The evidence for that is your statements.

So you're conveniently suggesting that the hundreds of thousands of Christians who did bad things were not real Christians? How very, very handy for you. Complete nonsense of course, many of them were far more religiously fundamentalist than you or anyone you've ever met, men and women who would literally die, kill, torture, maim and enslave in the absolute belief that they were obeying the word of a God they truly believed in.

This is a strawman. I'm merely saying that yes people twist the meaning of the bible to support their political/religious views. Look at the bible itself. It says the same thing. Look at the Pharisees.

[Jon Miller]

Yes Jon, that's absolutely correct. History has clearly shown us that Christianity and the other major religions have been a force for shining good, and that anyone who points to the tens of millions of deaths, the wars, the burnings, the rapes, the vicious conquests, the tortures and inquisitions, the pogroms, the enslavements and the rest is in fact an uneducated bigot who just has no understanding of such lofty matters.

If you had read history, you would know that this wasn't caused by religion, but was instead caused by people using religion for political purposes.

Historians agree, including atheists.

Of course, you are not interested in educating yourself, you are just interested in demonizing religion.

JM

[Kidlicious]

Yes Jon, that's absolutely correct. History has clearly shown us that Christianity and the other major religions have been a force for shining good, and that anyone who points to the tens of millions of deaths, the wars, the burnings, the rapes, the vicious conquests, the tortures and inquisitions, the pogroms, the enslavements and the rest is in fact an uneducated bigot who just has no understanding of such lofty matters.

I especially like how you leave out all of the good works that have been done because people believe in God.

[kentonio]

Then you don't really understand what Jesus meant when he said, "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone." You just have a real lack of understanding of this subject matter and nothing can be done about that.

It's quite incredible how religion manages to turn some people into such incredibly arrogant ******. Maybe if people like you and Jon spent a bit more time actually considering the points people raise and a little less telling them that they just don't understand, then we might get a bit more interesting debate going.

Because you're being obtuse. Let me put it to you like this. Why do you think you should be able to run the universe? You obviously think you know the correct way to do it. The evidence for that is your statements.

Why would I want to run the universe? Why would any intelligent being have the slightest interest in the mundane, tedious boring details of the universe? It's a sign of how self centred and arrogant you are that you think a 'god' would give the slightest **** about your life.

This is a strawman. I'm merely saying that yes people twist the meaning of the bible to support their political/religious views. Look at the bible itself. It says the same thing. Look at the Pharisees.

Yes the two millenia of near constant crimes against humanity brought about by the 'word of god' can definitely be classified as a 'strawman' and ignored.

It's ok I get it, you only want to claim the good bits and ignore the bad. It's pathetic, cowardly and dishonest, but hey **** it whatever helps you sleep at night.

[kentonio]

If you had read history, you would know that this wasn't caused by religion, but was instead caused by people using religion for political purposes.

Historians agree, including atheists.

Of course, you are not interested in educating yourself, you are just interested in demonizing religion.

JM

You managed to conveniently ignore the deeper question of HOW religion was used to carry out those acts. The people at the top of the system may not have believed a word of what they were saying, but people on teh ground, the soldiers, the inquisitors, the priests etc certainly did, which is how they were so easily manipulated.

Oh and stop with the 'demonizing religion' crap please, its pathetic. Religion is still far more prevalent than atheism, so this victim card stuff is a sign of real weakness.

[Jon Miller]

Your 'points' are stupid.

I have no reason to engage in 'interesting debate' with the person who sat next to me who believed in life energy just like I have no interest in 'interesting debate' with your ideas.

JM

[kentonio]

I especially like how you leave out all of the good works that have been done because people believe in God.

I'll happily comment on the good stuff as soon as you take responsibility for the bad. A simple 'Yes we may have killed millions of people, but some of the churches are really pretty' will surfice.