2nd Level German Court: Circumcision illegal

[kentonio]

I'm not making assumptions. You just don't know anything about children.

You have no idea what it is to believe in God, and believe that he loves you.

How do you know?

People don't pour guilt and all of that on children. If they do, that's not what I'm saying they should do. I take it you've never been to a childrens sunday school, or any other instittution that teaches children about religion. You're really talking about what you have no idea about here.

Again that's a pretty wild assumption on your part. I did indeed go to Sunday School as a child, and even *shock horror* church despite coming from a pretty non-religious family who would be best described as agnostics. I was religious, and spent lots of time considering those things, before realizing as a teenager that it was bull****.

As for people not pouring guilt onto children, that would also involve them not allowing children to read the bible. It doesn't matter how you teach it, the book is full of guilt. As for the old testament, jesus christ...

[Elok]

As for the old testament, jesus christ...

No, the OT is noted for its absence of Jesus Christ. Somebody didn't read very closely.

Re: brainwashing, if you had kids, how old would you wait for them to be before you taught them your values?

[kentonio]

No, the OT is noted for its absence of Jesus Christ. Somebody didn't read very closely.

Re: brainwashing, if you had kids, how old would you wait for them to be before you taught them your values?

I'd teach them to question everything, and try and draw logical conclusions from their discoveries. I think those simple lessons are enough to form a developed, inquisitive and well adjusted mind. I don't want my children to end up as carbon copies of me, I want them to become more intelligent, informed and generally better people. You don't achieve that by trying to shape their minds into your own version of what a person should be.

[Elok]

I'd teach them to question everything, and try and draw logical conclusions from their discoveries. I think those simple lessons are enough to form a developed, inquisitive and well adjusted mind. I don't want my children to end up as carbon copies of me, I want them to become more intelligent, informed and generally better people. You don't achieve that by trying to shape their minds into your own version of what a person should be.

There's a large gap between having values and being a carbon copy. Everyone has values; I don't know what yours are, though prizing free inquiry is itself a value. As are any lessons you teach them about the relative importance of the individual, the family and society; their responsibility/ies to the community; the extent to which patriotism is encouraged, or discouraged--and so on, and so on. I think it's impossible for a child to grow up in a total "values vacuum." They're bound to pick up on what you, your family or their friends think, even if it's totally subconscious. My parents never sat me down and told me the ideological differences between Democrats and Republicans, for example. I simply grew up with the childlike certainty that all Republicans were icky and stupid, and evil to boot. Just from listening to comments they made. It probably would have been better if they'd sat me down and explained where they disagreed with the GOP and why...

Anyway, supposing you could somehow wait until the child was old enough to reject ideas before teaching him any, what odds do you give of him/her accepting any of them, religious or secular? It's hard for me to conceive of a true "blank slate" child, but I imagine s/he would reject pretty much all of them on the grounds of "I never heard of any of this crap before, why are you telling me this now if it's so bloody important?"

[Imran Siddiqui]

It doesn't matter how you teach it, the book is full of guilt.

Someone also didn't read their New Testament . The lesson of that being that no matter how you have fallen short (and we all have) that God loves and forgives you all the same. How is that full of guilt? Since becoming a Christian, I've become a much nicer person while also being less guilt ridden about crap I have done in the past.

[Elok]

It depends how you read it, Imran.

[kentonio]

There's a large gap between having values and being a carbon copy. Everyone has values; I don't know what yours are, though prizing free inquiry is itself a value. As are any lessons you teach them about the relative importance of the individual, the family and society; their responsibility/ies to the community; the extent to which patriotism is encouraged, or discouraged--and so on, and so on. I think it's impossible for a child to grow up in a total "values vacuum." They're bound to pick up on what you, your family or their friends think, even if it's totally subconscious.

Of course it's impossible to have a 'blank slate' child, but there's a huge gulf between trying to encourage the development of independant thinking, and force feeding a pre-determined set of values which are often logically inconsistent anyway.

Anyway, supposing you could somehow wait until the child was old enough to reject ideas before teaching him any, what odds do you give of him/her accepting any of them, religious or secular? It's hard for me to conceive of a true "blank slate" child, but I imagine s/he would reject pretty much all of them on the grounds of "I never heard of any of this crap before, why are you telling me this now if it's so bloody important?"

If they don't stand true on their own merits then they deserve to be rejected. Or does religion only make sense if you get it into peoples minds young enough?

Someone also didn't read their New Testament . The lesson of that being that no matter how you have fallen short (and we all have) that God loves and forgives you all the same. How is that full of guilt?

As long as you bow your knee and obey the commandments of your terrifying god, because unless you are willing to kneel and obey you will suffer eternal damnation. Oh and if you don't obey you are pissing all over the memory of his sweet son who was horribly tortured and murdered to pay for all those sins you were inevitably going to commit. On the bright side, you have the freedom to choose.

[Jon Miller]

Why not give all children the same opportunity to choose their way?

Would you teach your child that the earth was flat or that people with dark skin were part ape? Or that stealing was OK if no one found out?

JM

[kentonio]

Would you teach your child that the earth was flat or that people with dark skin were part ape? Or that stealing was OK if no one found out?

JM

How does that relate in any way to trying to teach a child to think for themselves?

[giblets]

Someone also didn't read their New Testament . The lesson of that being that no matter how you have fallen short (and we all have) that God loves and forgives you all the same. How is that full of guilt? Since becoming a Christian, I've become a much nicer person while also being less guilt ridden about crap I have done in the past.

So if God will still love you no matter what, why bother with being nice? It doesn't seem like you have any reason to be nice that you didn't already have when you weren't a Christian.

[giblets]

How does that relate in any way to trying to teach a child to think for themselves?

Teaching them a particular set of beliefs doesn't prevent you from encouraging them to learn how to think for themselves. If you went to church as a child and rejected religion anyway that should be clear.

[kentonio]

Teaching them a particular set of beliefs doesn't prevent you from encouraging them to learn how to think for themselves. If you went to church as a child and rejected religion anyway that should be clear.

Not really, I wasn't taught religious beliefs by my parents, it was something I chose to explore myself.

[Jon Miller]

How does that relate in any way to trying to teach a child to think for themselves?

How is me not teaching a (my) child about God relate in any way to trying to teach a (my) child to think for themselves?

JM

[Imran Siddiqui]

As long as you bow your knee and obey the commandments of your terrifying god, because unless you are willing to kneel and obey you will suffer eternal damnation. Oh and if you don't obey you are pissing all over the memory of his sweet son who was horribly tortured and murdered to pay for all those sins you were inevitably going to commit. On the bright side, you have the freedom to choose.

How would this apply to the vast number of Christians who are more universalist in their outlook? Heck, really only evangelical Christians these days believe in eternal torture Hell (seriously, even the Catholic Church states in their Catechism that Hell is seperation from God, not eternal torture).

[Imran Siddiqui]

So if God will still love you no matter what, why bother with being nice? It doesn't seem like you have any reason to be nice that you didn't already have when you weren't a Christian.

In thankfullness of all He's done for me, I want to honor Him by loving my neighbor as myself. It's like being in a relationship - you aren't nice to your mate just in a calculative way (if I'm not nice, s/he will leave me!!), you are nice because you want your mate to be happy.