2nd Level German Court: Circumcision illegal

[kentonio]

Your 'points' are stupid.

I have no reason to engage in 'interesting debate' with the person who sat next to me who believed in life energy just like I have no interest in 'interesting debate' with your ideas.

JM

Yet you were the one who chose to participate.

Incidentally I haven't really made any points beyond 'religion has caused a lot of horrible ****' which anyone with half a brain knows damn well to be true. Judging by you and Kid in this thread, it's also caused a lot of dishonesty and self-delusion.

[Jon Miller]

Oh and stop with the 'demonizing religion' crap please, its pathetic. Religion is still far more prevalent than atheism, so this victim card stuff is a sign of real weakness.

Atheists love to demonize the religious though, far more than religious people demonize atheists (based on the minority atheist position being so much more prevalent in demonizing the religious (generally Christians) compared to the majority religious position).

I work with many atheists (~50 % of physicists, more in Europe). The majority of atheists in my personal interaction have demonized Christians or referred to them as the enemy. I know a lot of Christians from church and my family, and I can only count on my fingers the number of Christians who refer to atheists as their enemy or demonize them.

Yes there are some vocal Christians online and in the media, but atheists seem more vocal online too....

Based on my experience, I am worried about what atheists would do if they were the majority.

JM

[Aeson]

Classical Greece is far more responsible for the "good parts" (democracy, science, ethics) of the Western world than Christianity. Not to mention that "here we are" is not a point, since we have absolutely no idea where we'd be (for better or worse) without Christianity.

[Kidlicious]

It's quite incredible how religion manages to turn some people into such incredibly arrogant ******. Maybe if people like you and Jon spent a bit more time actually considering the points people raise and a little less telling them that they just don't understand, then we might get a bit more interesting debate going.



Why would I want to run the universe? Why would any intelligent being have the slightest interest in the mundane, tedious boring details of the universe? It's a sign of how self centred and arrogant you are that you think a 'god' would give the slightest **** about your life.



Yes the two millenia of near constant crimes against humanity brought about by the 'word of god' can definitely be classified as a 'strawman' and ignored.

It's ok I get it, you only want to claim the good bits and ignore the bad. It's pathetic, cowardly and dishonest, but hey **** it whatever helps you sleep at night.

You are sooooo bigoted.

Let me give you one more clue. I don't believe it's a perfect world, at least not from a human perspective. You've got a lot to learn bud.

[Jon Miller]

Yet you were the one who chose to participate.

Incidentally I haven't really made any points beyond 'religion has caused a lot of horrible ****' which anyone with half a brain knows damn well to be true. Judging by you and Kid in this thread, it's also caused a lot of dishonesty and self-delusion.

Your points were that Christianity in particular had caused the Crusades/atrocities/etc/etc.

Yes, this is not true.

And please don't judge Christians by Kid, I don't think any of the Christians on this site would say that you should consider Kid as the Christian to emulate.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Classical Greece is far more responsible for the "good parts" (democracy, science, ethics) of the Western world than Christianity. Not to mention that "here we are" is not a point, since we have absolutely no idea where we'd be (for better or worse) without Christianity.

Greeks had slavery/etc too. Additionally, it was following Greek science which restricted science development in the middle ages. People were restricted because their ideas differed from those that originated with Aristotle, not because their ideas differed from those that originated with Jesus, Paul, or the ancient Jewish prophets/priests.

And we can compare ourselves to the rest of the world, and to those who also had Greek history (Middle East/etc).

JM

[kentonio]

Atheists love to demonize the religious though, far more than religious people demonize atheists (based on the minority atheist position being so much more prevalent in demonizing the religious (generally Christians) compared to the majority religious position).

I work with many atheists (~50 % of physicists, more in Europe). The majority of atheists in my personal interaction have demonized Christians or referred to them as the enemy. I know a lot of Christians from church and my family, and I can only count on my fingers the number of Christians who refer to atheists as their enemy or demonize them.

Yes there are some vocal Christians online and in the media, but atheists seem more vocal online too....

Based on my experience, I am worried about what atheists would do if they were the majority.

Is the reason for that not pretty obvious? Religious education poses a direct danger to scientific education because kids are being taught things which run contrary to reality. I'm not saying you can't find a space where religion and science can co-exist because you can (I assume you have, as a physicist yourself), but we hear an awful lot about schools coming under pressure to undermine proper teaching of evolution, and the injection of religious teaching inappropriately into schools. I think the reason atheists in general have become more vocal, is because the religious have tried to push back against rising secularism in the western world.

[Dinner]

Atheists love to demonize the religious though, far more than religious people demonize atheists

I can't agree with that at all. The religious right just loves, LOVES, to claim atheists are the anti-christ who is subhuman. Alternet had a nice article on this topic recently.

[kentonio]

Your points were that Christianity in particular had caused the Crusades/atrocities/etc/etc.

Yes, this is not true.

It's not so much that Christianity caused the atrocities, more that I don't trust any system that provides such incredible power for abuse, and it's that abuse that disgusts me so much about pretty much all the religions.

I can't imagine a system that could have a more dangerous control over people than the concept of an omnipotent, omnipresent god who can judge you eternally, and that's one reason why I think its a man made concept. It's just too useful as a system of control.

Additionally, it was following Greek science which restricted science development in the middle ages. People were restricted because their ideas differed from those that originated with Aristotle, not because their ideas differed from those that originated with Jesus, Paul, or the ancient Jewish prophets/priests.

We can hardly blame the Greeks for that though.

[Kidlicious]

Your points were that Christianity in particular had caused the Crusades/atrocities/etc/etc.

Yes, this is not true.

And please don't judge Christians by Kid, I don't think any of the Christians on this site would say that you should consider Kid as the Christian to emulate.

JM

And you and others are not God, although you obviously think you are.

[Kidlicious]

It's not so much that Christianity caused the atrocities, more that I don't trust any system that provides such incredible power for abuse, and it's that abuse that disgusts me so much about pretty much all the religions.

I can't imagine a system that could have a more dangerous control over people than the concept of an omnipotent, omnipresent god who can judge you eternally, and that's one reason why I think its a man made concept. It's just too useful as a system of control.


)

Why do yo think Jesus believed in the system? Why don't you start reading the bible instead of worrying about what other people believe?

[Kidlicious]

Is the reason for that not pretty obvious? Religious education poses a direct danger to scientific education because kids are being taught things which run contrary to reality. I'm not saying you can't find a space where religion and science can co-exist because you can (I assume you have, as a physicist yourself), but we hear an awful lot about schools coming under pressure to undermine proper teaching of evolution, and the injection of religious teaching inappropriately into schools. I think the reason atheists in general have become more vocal, is because the religious have tried to push back against rising secularism in the western world.

The bigotry in this statement is glaring. It's not trying to push back against secularism except for combating bigots like yourself who believe there is no place for religion because those people are stupid and don't believe like we do.

[Aeson]

Greeks had slavery/etc too.

Yes, the Greeks liked young boys too, something they share with Catholic priests. But the fact remains that most of the good ideas we attribute to Western civilization had it's roots in Classical Greece. Christianity on the other hand has some really good ideals to add to those that never really were implemented by the Western world (lip service doesn't count).

Additionally, it was following Greek science which restricted science development in the middle ages. People were restricted because their ideas differed from those that originated with Aristotle, not because their ideas differed from those that originated with Jesus, Paul, or the ancient Jewish prophets/priests.

That's squarely on the Church and Monarchs. The Greeks were long dead, and if you actually read their stuff, for the most part they weren't suggesting the dark ages be implemented. Just because some Neo Nazi's can quote the Bible at you doesn't mean it was following Christ that lead to their racism.

And we can compare ourselves to the rest of the world, and to those who also had Greek history (Middle East/etc).

Which also had differing geography, religion(s), climate, leaders (for most of history it's just a genetic lottery), social movements, competing civilizations (with their own variations on those other factors), random natural events... controlling for those variables is not something you can do. Even if we ignore that though, then your point would be refuted by there being Christian populations which didn't develop the same as others.

For all we know without Christianity we could have wiped out humanity by now (we weren't that far off as it was), or be living in some futuristic utopia (again, we aren't that far off there either). We likely wouldn't be in much different position than we are, other than labeling. Most influences would have remained the same.

[Aeson]

Greeks had slavery/etc too.

Yes, the Greeks liked young boys too, something they share with Catholic priests. But the fact remains that most of the good ideas we attribute to Western civilization had it's roots in Classical Greece. Christianity on the other hand has some really good ideals to add to those that never really were implemented by the Western world (lip service doesn't count).

Additionally, it was following Greek science which restricted science development in the middle ages. People were restricted because their ideas differed from those that originated with Aristotle, not because their ideas differed from those that originated with Jesus, Paul, or the ancient Jewish prophets/priests.

That's squarely on the Church and Monarchs. The Greeks were long dead, and if you actually read their stuff, for the most part they weren't suggesting the dark ages be implemented. Just because some Neo Nazi's can quote the Bible at you doesn't mean it was following Christ that lead to their racism.

And we can compare ourselves to the rest of the world, and to those who also had Greek history (Middle East/etc).

Which also had differing geography, religion(s), climate, leaders (for most of history it's just a genetic lottery), social movements, competing civilizations (with their own variations on those other factors), random natural events... controlling for those variables is not something you can do. Even if we ignore that though, then your point would be refuted by there being Christian populations which didn't develop the same as others.

For all we know without Christianity we could have wiped out humanity by now (we weren't that far off as it was), or be living in some futuristic utopia (again, we aren't that far off there either). We likely wouldn't be in much different position than we are, other than labeling. Most influences would have remained the same.

[Jon Miller]

For example, let's take an atheist site (one you parrot?):

http://atheism.about.com/od/crusades/a/crusades_3.htm

Note that it says that religion caused the conflict. But while it provides lots of social reasons, it never once gives a religious reason (from the Christian side (which can be found in the Bible)).

That is because there isn't, in Christian scripture/theology, the idea that one should go and conquer territory for Christ/Christianity.

First it gives is a tribal reason (my tribe (in this case Christians) is being attacked by another tribe (in this case, Muslims), so I need to go and defend my tribe). Note that tribal is not the same as religious, it is a reason that exists for any tribe.... if atheist/secular thailand was being attacked by some religious country, don't you think that neighboring nations that share culture/atheist/secularness (China?) would be inclined to defend them? Particularly if there were also social/economic reasons. This has nothing to do with Christianity (and little to do with religion in general).

Next it talks about religious reasons. But you don't find pilgrimages or doing such things to get sins forgiven/etc in Christian theology or scripture. While I won't speak for Catholics (except to note they no longer do this), analysis by both Christians and non-Christians from the last 200+ years have identified these things as economic manipulations of the nobility/etc by 'Christian nobility' (the priests/etc). Not true religion, although I will accept this as a step back.

Science was perverted (and is much simpler than religion) for racism and genocide. I don't think you can argue that Christianity has been more negative than Science.

JM