Catholic church condones child rape and is against the abortion that will save her life

[Elok]

Do you see me contesting that? If you want to get yourself good and outraged about it, vent on the Pope's myrmidon here, not me.

[Ming]

No... while you weren't contesting it... but your comment "to be fair, it's a larger org" is in a way, a justification... I don't frankly care that they are a larger so odds say that they will have a bigger problem... THEY COVERED IT UP... that's the problem.

[Elok]

The words "to be fair" are not a justification. They are an attempt to signal that I want to remain calm and even-handed in discussion, instead of getting all up in a lather about it and perhaps overreaching. I give the "accused" every allowance, and I think it's better that way. If you don't, that's fine, but I'd rather you not take it out on me.

[Jon Miller]

I can understand (and agree with) Ming wanting to make clear it is a big deal and not something to be calm about.

I have felt the same about abortion.

Sometimes calmness is needed. Other times making a big stink is what is needed to make people realize that it requires action (even if it is something they are uncomfortable about/etc).

JM

[Ming]

instead of getting all up in a lather about it and perhaps overreaching

As far as overreaching... facts are facts... And pointing out that they covered up is not getting all up in a lather... it's again, just stating the facts.

The fact that the RCC is large is not a justification for the amount of abuse, or the fact they did nothing about it and instead covered it up.

[Elok]

I can understand (and agree with) Ming wanting to make clear it is a big deal and not something to be calm about.

I have felt the same about abortion.

Sometimes calmness is needed. Other times making a big stink is what is needed to make people realize that it requires action (even if it is something they are uncomfortable about/etc).

The action in question here has already been taken. There are ongoing aftershocks as new revelations come out--I think there was one recently where it turned out the Bishop of Somewhere paid his dirty birds to resign rather than go through the hassle of even the Ecclesiastical Court process--but essentially it's all over but the lawsuits, the recriminations and the long hemorrhage of membership for the RCC. Whether I get passionate about it, here or at home or anywhere else but making arguments in front of a jury, makes no difference.

But I think it is an excellent habit to get into to try and give the benefit of the doubt even to proven stinkers--it's easy enough to do here, but that will perhaps make it easier to do when it matters. It encourages flexible thinking, the ability to see others' POV, and dispassion, all of which should in theory lead to better decisions.

[-Jrabbit]

Nice words, Elok (with bonus points for "myrmidon"), but the RCC burned its reserve of "benefit of the doubt" with impunity.
Moral leadership is a monumentally difficult task that comes with great responsibility.

Instead of cleaning house and helping the victims, the RCC actively attempted to hide the activities of its deviant priests. In doing so, they shirked that responsibility and ceded any claim to the moral high ground.

[Ming]

Couldn't have said it better

[Elok]

Did I say anything about their possessing the moral high ground, or praise them, or justify their actions? The way I see it, this is entirely a matter of my forming desirable habits of thought and feeling. I do not wish to get so caught up in condemnation that I completely demonize and dehumanize the people I'm condemning. It's a universal human tendency, but one I find repulsive and don't want to encourage in myself. Making an attempt at evenhandedness won't make them any better, but it might keep me from getting any worse.

Consider what I said to Rah: the RCC has conspired more to cover up perversion than anyone else, yes, but then the RCC has also had a larger organization and a larger potential problem to cover up in the first place. It's to be expected that they would have a bigger coverup than, say, Penn State, with its one sicko coach. The scale of their malfeasance was at least vaguely proportional to their size as an organization. What about that justifies what they did?

[Ben Kenobi]

Abuse of what type, which country, and during which years? Also, did the teacher's union cover up the crimes?

Sexual abuse, in America, and pick a year. The union keeps the abusers teachers salary. Rubber rooms exist (thanks to the unions), forcing the public to pay for convicted sex offenders. At least the Catholic Church doesn't have the chutzpah to have the public footing the bill.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well then you're just going to have to go get her medical records because the newspaper isn't obliged to publish them. Remember, every word devoted to providing news takes up space that could have been devoted to a revenue providing ad.

So you're admitting we don't have sufficient medical evidence to ascertain that her life was actually in danger. Thank you.

[Ben Kenobi]

Whenever Ben brings that up I have to laugh. Well a few teachers abused kids so you can't rag about the Catholic priests. Ridiculous. Don't forget the couple of Boy scout troop leaders or that College football coach. No organization has systematically protected and covered it up as much as the Catholic Church. Arguing otherwise is silly. Unless you live in benland, of course.

It's not "just a few teachers". That's my point. Clear double standard. Thanks for proving my case that it's all about hating the Catholic church and not about the welfare of the children.

[Ming]

At least the Catholic Church doesn't have the chutzpah to have the public footing the bill.

Nahhhh... they only threatened the victims and the families to stay quiet. Now that's chutzpah.

[Ben Kenobi]

but the RCC burned its reserve of "benefit of the doubt" with impunity.
Moral leadership is a monumentally difficult task that comes with great responsibility.

Why then can I conclusively show that in America, the abuse was correlated with certain bishops (such as Weakland), who no longer serve? It was especially bad in Washington, and the bishop there was replaced by Pope John Paul II, in the 80s. So, what happened then is relevant now? That was 30 years ago that steps were taken to correct things.

Does Three Mile Island conclusively show that nuclear power is prima facie unsafe?

[Ben Kenobi]

Nahhhh... they only threatened the victims and the families to stay quiet. Now that's chutzpah.

So why aren't you saying that public schools can no longer be trusted with children, when their abuse rates have always been higher than the Catholic church?