"For good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Okay, what about Communism?

[loinburger]

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Steven_Weinberg

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

1. Is this an accurate depiction of religious atrocities throughout the millennia - "good [and evil] people doing evil things"? Or is it all just "evil people pretending to be good people doing evil things"?
2. Assuming that the answer to [1] is that religion allows good people to do evil things, then does this also hold true for Communism's atrocities? Or is it all just "evil people pretending to be good people doing evil things"?
3. Assuming that the answers to [1] and [2] are that religion and Communism allow good people to do evil things, then what's the commonality?

Edit: Note that "this wasn't true [whatever]" applies to both religion and Communism, and is probably equally valid/facile when applied to either institution (my money is on "facile").

[Jon Miller]

I disagree with [1].

JM

[regexcellent]

My case is that with religious atrocities, religion typically isn't the reason, but rather the excuse or justification. On the other hand, with Communism, many atrocities committed and the violation of man's basic rights are a core part of the system.

[Hauldren Collider]

I think Communism is essentially a religion. People believe its principles are true despite all evidence to the contrary.

[giblets]

I think Communism is essentially a religion. People believe its principles are true despite all evidence to the contrary.

Err doesn't that make all political ideologies you disagree with "religious"? And isn't it a little silly to define religion in a way that makes no reference to the supernatural?

[MikeH]

I think people aren't good or bad and the evidence is that most people will end up committing horrendous atrocities if they end up being part of a group which is committing atrocities. It doesn't really matter if the 'group' is religious or not. What is unhelpful is where one group describes everyone of another group as inherently wrong/bad/evil and this has happened with some religious groups in the past and with some non-religious groups too.

[The Mad Monk]

I guess it depends on how you define good and evil.

The first example I thought of had nothing to do with religion -- Churchill allowing the destruction of Coventry to keep their possession of the enigma device a secret.

[Ben Kenobi]

I think Communism is essentially a religion. People believe its principles are true despite all evidence to the contrary.

And they have official scriptures and prophets too. Lenin, Marx, Engels, Trotsky, Stalin, Mao.

[regexcellent]

I think Communism is essentially a religion. People believe its principles are true despite all evidence to the contrary.

This is the argument my former roommate used to make the infuriating claim that atheists never did anything bad. Though It wasn't as annoying as the fact that he's morbidly obese and has terrible hygiene.

Basically goes "any atheists who was ever evil was secretly religious; also any Communists were were clearly not religious had the religion of Communism, so they weren't atheists, therefore no atheist has ever been a bad person."

[MikeH]

That kind of moronic talk makes me realise how embarrassed sensible religious people must be by their religion's nutcases.

[kentonio]

I think Communism is essentially a religion. People believe its principles are true despite all evidence to the contrary.

I actually tend to agree with HC here, although I think it's more the way that ideologically based regimes use many of the same methods as religion to invoke loyalty and belief in the power of the system. The god figure is usually replaced with the great leader figure and most of the methodology is the same.

My case is that with religious atrocities, religion typically isn't the reason, but rather the excuse or justification. On the other hand, with Communism, many atrocities committed and the violation of man's basic rights are a core part of the system.

That's pretty dumb. You give religion a free pass but those darn commies are just evil right?

[Lorizael]

I think people aren't good or bad and the evidence is that most people will end up committing horrendous atrocities if they end up being part of a group which is committing atrocities. It doesn't really matter if the 'group' is religious or not. What is unhelpful is where one group describes everyone of another group as inherently wrong/bad/evil and this has happened with some religious groups in the past and with some non-religious groups too.

+1

[Imran Siddiqui]

As with Jon Miller, I think point 1 is where Weinberg's argument falls apart. I also agree with Mike that good people will end up committing or going along with atrocities if "everyone else is doing it" (for example, I don't think everyone in Germany was evil during the 1940s - though I could be wrong on that).

[MikeH]

YES! Imran loses the thread.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Like my Lord and Savior, I shall bear the loss so y'all don't have to