Hello everybody

[MrFun]

I'm still trying to figure out what "we don't understand"

Ummm... they are conservative... they don't like change... they have strong religious beliefs and think that two men together is a sin and that they are damned to hell forever...

I understand how they think change should come slowly... but at the end of the day... They don't think people should have equal freedoms based simply on sexual orientation...
That is the change they don't want. And frankly, that's discrimination, plain and simple.

Just how much longer should people being discriminated against have to wait because some other people don't like change. The more seriously harmed party here is the one that is being discriminated against. Even you have stated that they have been waiting for the same basic rights that the conservatives have for 10 to 20 years (some might argue that it's been a lot longer than that) How much longer do they need to wait simply because some conservatives don't like change?

I think we all understand perfectly what's going on here... It's really very simple... it's called discrimination.... LOOK IT UP!

[kentonio]

Huh, have you understood a post I have made?

A conservative minded person wouldn't see it as discrimination.

Bull****. A conservative minded person who either is a bigot or who doesn't examine the issue thoroughly might not see it as discrimination perhaps, but your assertion that large swathes of people are genetically incapable of seeing that something is discriminatory is complete nonsense. This is not a new issue as we already discussed, if people are still standing on the wrong side of the argument now then they don't have any excuse any more.

That fact that homosexuals feel discriminated against is important. And there are solid reasons to change marriage to include homosexual relations (as pointed out by zevico).

And yes, I think that gay people feel that 'stop bullying' is important important than gay marriage.

Well we can surely find that out by asking the gay members here. I find it incredible however that you don't see how discriminatory policies inevitably lead to increased bullying however.

[notyoueither]

When the group is large enough they are more likely to become insular and lash out at those who attack them.

Which we are seeing now.

I see. You think that gay bashing is being caused by promoting gay rights. Do I have that right?

So gay bashing must be more common now than it has been in the past. Is that right?

You and people like you are doing more to cause attacks against homosexuals than I.

JM

This seems to be laughable. Perhaps you could explain what I have done to cause attacks against homosexuals.

[MrFun]

So I suppose people who are against blacks voting in elections, are not bigoted. They simply have a different opinion.

[Ben Kenobi]

Also please note that the reason that some of the 'liberals' support the policies that they do is that they think that the laborers are being unfairly exploited by the wealthy. And so is not being given what he has earned (and has no other options to get a job to get what he/she is earned). I think this happens in the US, but even to a greater degree in Thialand/etc.

Remember what Jesus said - "it's my money, don't I have the right to spend it as I wish?"

This is exactly my point - taking away people's money and spending it how you would prefer it to be spent is wrong. True charity is not coerced.

[Ben Kenobi]

You didn't deny you'd **** him.

I also didn't deny that I starred in "Amy's back in Austin V - doing the deaf dude".

[rah]

Yeah, I'm amused how everyone else seems to know everything about my love life.

What exactly have I posted on it here?

Well based on what you've posted (please fee free to make any corrections)

You're not married

You're saving yourself for marriage

Hence you've never had sex with a woman.

You spend a lot of time talking about things that you no actual experience with.

While direct experience is not necessary in a discussion, it can add a certain weight to someones opinion.

[Jon Miller]

I see. You think that gay bashing is being caused by promoting gay rights. Do I have that right?

So gay bashing must be more common now than it has been in the past. Is that right?

This seems to be laughable. Perhaps you could explain what I have done to cause attacks against homosexuals.

I think that the increase in gay bashing that has arose in the last ~10 years is caused by attacks ('bigots bigots bigots') against people who don't follow the 'change' argument.

We haven't seen the same decrease in gay bashing that we would expect from the increase in other signs of acceptance of homosexuals/homosexuality.

Maybe we need to repost that plot about gay marriage?

JM

[Elok]

It's no good to simply say that group X is being disrespectful or intolerant by not accepting the conservative worldview. To be tolerated, the worldview must be accepted as, to some extent, a reasonable way to look at the world. At this task, conservatives in America have largely failed, for the same reason liberals in America have failed to persuade conservatives: they have not attempted to show the other side what their worldview has to offer.

So, what does tradition have to offer? That's the challenge. Say, for the sake of argument, that marriage has always meant one man and one woman. And now people are proposing to change that. So? What will that do? What harm is done by changing it? What good is lost? Or it's threatening traditional marriage. How? How is heterosexuality diminished by homosexuality? I've never heard a clear answer as to how letting gays marry is a threat, beyond the slippery-slope-to-bigamy argument, which isn't much. Or the equally hypothetical they-might-eventually-make-churches-do-gay-marriages. The dreadful, dreadful maybes.

There are aspects of social conservatism which are attractive to me--the aspects that lament lost things worth keeping. The disintegration of the family, especially among minorities, is a bad thing. Nobody should have to be a single parent, and society should not consist of atomized individuals who think Good begins and ends with nobody telling them, personally, what to do. Communities are good things. Of course, social conservatism seems (to me) like it's forgotten about church and family as the basis of community, and community as the basis of society--largely, I think, because of the more libertarian aspect of conservatism that freaks out about anything vaguely half-resembling communism.

[Ben Kenobi]

You're not married

Yep, that's correct. Not married and never been.

You're saving yourself for marriage

Yep, I've said that before.

Hence you've never had sex with a woman.

Not yet, no.

You spend a lot of time talking about things that you have no actual experience with.

So in order for one to understand anything about marriage, one must first be married? I can't talk to married people and listen to what they have had said? I can't observe married people? I have quite a bit of experience with married people, most folks do.

I don't think I've been offering people advice on how to get laid - if I have, you'll have to correct me.

While direct experience is not necessary in a discussion, it can add a certain weight to someones opinion.

Have I said otherwise? Beyond 'not having had sex', and 'not having ever been married', well, there's a pretty broad range of things, would you say, rah?

I mean, I'm not albert, I don't post threads on 'help me get a girlfriend', etc.

[Jon Miller]

Remember what Jesus said - "it's my money, don't I have the right to spend it as I wish?"

This is exactly my point - taking away people's money and spending it how you would prefer it to be spent is wrong. True charity is not coerced.

When did Jesus give directions about how to run a country?

The Bible does talk about what happens to nations where the rich exploit the poor and do not give them their just wages. Those nations get destroyed. Read some of the old testament some time.

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

To be tolerated, the worldview must be accepted as, to some extent, a reasonable way to look at the world.

So how would you assess Kierkegaard?

Kierkegaard argues that we should want to suffer, that we should want to be alienated from the world, that despair is a blessing.

And most of all- that reason has limitations, and that we should not be constrained solely by reason.

[Ben Kenobi]

The Bible does talk about what happens to nations where the rich exploit the poor and do not give them their just wages. Those nations get destroyed. Read some of the old testament some time.

I should quote that.

Which nation are you referring to?

[Elok]

Um, whenTF did Jesus say "it's my money, I can spend it how I wish?" Is BK somehow confusing Jesus with Ronald Reagan?

[Ben Kenobi]

Um, whenTF did Jesus say "it's my money, I can spend it how I wish?" Is BK somehow confusing Jesus with Ronald Reagan?

Parable of the workers in the vineyard.

Matthew 20:13-5

“But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’