Will the real Christians like Father Michael Ryan please stand up?

[Jon Miller]

John Brown and others like him were not the only ones who were sincere in their belief about slavery.

JM

[Dinner]

Every church who uses their tax free position for political purposes, such as this case, should automatically lose their tax free status for 10 years and be forced to pay a huge penalty for breaking the law. If they can't come up with the case have the state take their property, let the church go bankrupt, and let it be a lesson to the other churches about what breaking the law will result in. They don't have to pay taxes and in exchange they're supposed to save souls instead of meddling in politics. If they break their oaths then they need to be punished most severely.

[Dinner]

John Brown and others like him were not the only ones who were sincere in their belief about slavery.

JM

I agree with John Brown's position that slavery is immoral. His position on violence renders that mute though and he deserved to be hanged. Come to think of it every Confederate should have been hanged too. Fair is fair.

[Jon Miller]

Every church who uses their tax free position for political purposes, such as this case, should automatically lose their tax free status for 10 years and be forced to pay a huge penalty for breaking the law. If they can't come up with the case have the state take their property, let the church go bankrupt, and let it be a lesson to the other churches about what breaking the law will result in. They don't have to pay taxes and in exchange they're supposed to save souls instead of meddling in politics. If they break their oaths then they need to be punished most severely.

Moral positions including murder and slavery have political consequences.

I also am against the politicization of the religious right, but I don't think it can be politically acted against without acting against freedom of religion/conscience/speech.

JM

[Al B. Sure!]

I agree with John Brown's position that slavery is immoral. His position on violence renders that mute though and he deserved to be hanged. Come to think of it every Confederate should have been hanged too. Fair is fair.

The dilemma is that Lincoln was soft with regards to punishing treachery. He did order the executions of Sioux rebels but was very careful in doing so; the military tribunals sentenced 303 Sioux to death but Lincoln's intervention reduced that number to 38:

Dole told Lincoln that if he was to allow the execution of all 303 Indians, it would be "contrary to the spirit of the age, and our character as a great magnanimous and Christian people."

Persuaded by the bishop and commissioner, Lincoln ordered two Administration lawyers, Francis Ruggles and George Whiting, to help him closely review the records from the trials that had been presided over by Minnesota ex-governor, General Henry H. Sibley. Upon examination, the three had discovered that hearsay evidence had been used against many of the condemned as well as trials without counsel for many of the accused, with some of the trials lasting less than 15 minutes. In just one day 42 Indians had faced trial in front of General Sibley's tribunals resulting in 42 convictions. Based on these findings, the two lawyers recommended that Lincoln commute many of the death sentences. Lincoln personally re-examined the list of 40 whom all three reviewers had determined were guilty and rightfully condemned to death, concluding that one Indian known as Chaskaydon, had a name too close to one of the other condemned and may possibly have been innocent which reduced the condemned list to 39. In his execution order to Sibley, Lincoln carefully spelled out the 39 names by hand and told the telegraph operator to be extremely careful in the transmission of their names because a slight error might lead to the hanging of the wrong man. On the day before the execution, Lincoln pardoned another on the list -- Ta te mi na, aka Round Wind -- when it was brought to the president's attention that this condemned man had actually helped Whites escape during the attacks.

On December 26, 1862, the 38 Sioux determined by Lincoln and the two Administration lawyers to be guilty of capitol crimes from an original list of 303, were hanged. Following the executions there was widspread dissension in Minnesota for Lincoln's failure to execute all 303 prisoners which reflected in the state's Republican party's vote losses incurred during the 1864 elections. Alexander Ramsey, the senator from Minnesota, said "that if he had hung more Indians, we should have given him his old majority," to which Lincoln replied, "I could not afford to hang men for votes."

As per his Second Inaugural Address ('with malice towards none'), Lincoln had a history of magnanimity; the Southerners received a clemency they probably didn't deserve.

[OzzyKP]

Every church who uses their tax free position for political purposes, such as this case, should automatically lose their tax free status for 10 years and be forced to pay a huge penalty for breaking the law. If they can't come up with the case have the state take their property, let the church go bankrupt, and let it be a lesson to the other churches about what breaking the law will result in. They don't have to pay taxes and in exchange they're supposed to save souls instead of meddling in politics. If they break their oaths then they need to be punished most severely.

"meddling in politics" = giving money to candidates and spending more then 20% of their budgets on lobbying.

Having opinions on matters that affect the country - or your own church - is not "meddling in politics".

[Elok]

Ryan wasn't the only Catholic to balk at the idea. Governor Christine Gregoire is a Catholic and signed the bill into law. State Sen. Ed Murray, who is gay and Catholic, was a major backer and called the archbishop's decision "repressible."

Freudian slip?

[regexcellent]

I agree with John Brown's position that slavery is immoral. His position on violence renders that mute though and he deserved to be hanged. Come to think of it every Confederate should have been hanged too. Fair is fair.

That would have been a monumentally stupid idea. You don't get your enemies to surrender by promising to kill them all.

[Wezil]

I'm still trying to figure out why violence can't be met with violence.

We're talking about the murder of innocent children by the millions.

[Al B. Sure!]

That would have been a monumentally stupid idea. You don't get your enemies to surrender by promising to kill them all.

Why did we have to 'get' them to surrender? Sherman was doing a fine job with reparations and was heading north to meet Grant.

[Al B. Sure!]

I'm still trying to figure out why violence can't be met with violence.

We're talking about the murder of innocent children by the millions.

Blame Martin Luther King, Gandhi, and Nelson Mandela for that idea.

[Wezil]

Would these same people also stand by if a million teenagers were being murdered each year?

Pay their taxes and vote for the "anti-teen murder" candidate?

[OzzyKP]

Blame Martin Luther King, Gandhi, and Nelson Mandela for that idea.

And, uh, that Jesus fellow.

[Jon Miller]

Would these same people also stand by if a million teenagers were being murdered each year?

Pay their taxes and vote for the "anti-teen murder" candidate?

Yes, sometimes violence is the answer and sometimes non-violence is the answer.

I don't consider Germans who spoke out against the holocaust as part of it, even if they didn't take up arms against the Nazis.

If I thought violence would be positive I would be violent.

JM

[Wezil]

You would stand by while a million teenagers a year were arbitrarily murdered with the okay of the State?

Bull****! If you did you would be a pretty cowardly individual.

The problem Jon is your actions don't match your rhetoric. I don't think you believe it and, more importantly, the wider population sure as hell doesn't (hence no actions to stop the baby killing).