Azerbaijan allegedly gives Israel access to airbases

[Dinner]

UN sanctions did eventually bring down South Africa's apartheid government. Personally, I'd say they were much more self sufficient than Israel especially wrt to energy and raw materials so I wouldn't underestimate how valuable that support is to Israel.

Not that the US is going to change policy; I'm simply pointing out that it helps Israel in a number of ways which it would be unable to replicate on its own.

[Dr Strangelove]

It is not just military support. You'd become the international pariah within months without US support in the UN.

We were an "international pariah" from 48'. This, of course, intensified, since Israel was used as a talking point in the cold war, where we were an "international pariah" to the entire eastern block. But now, there is no cold war, so... meh, our condition is much better than in 48'.

That's a load of baloney. If that were true there might have been some international support for making Israel give back the parts of Palestine taken in '48. For that matter remember that the USSR raced with the US to recognize the nation of Israel. I've forgotten who won. The entire world diplomatic community worked together to sweep the Palestinian probem under the Jordanian and Egyptian rug. For that matter remember that some of the nations which were on the surface most hostile to Israel eagerly took the "gifts" of the West Bank and Gaza. Great Britain and France were chummy enough with you to co-ordinate the 1956 war. The US was chummy enough with you to hush up the Liberty incident. I honestly don't know if we'd do that even for our "special relationship" with the British. You've gotten away with a lot more than most other countries would have.

[regexcellent]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th_Fighter_Squadron#Invasion_of_Iraq_friendly_fire_incident

The British haven't stopped being our allies as a result of that incident. The Israelis made a friendly fire mistake in the USS Liberty Incident; it happens.

The reason nobody intelligent is calling for Israel to return to the '67 borders is twofold: firstly, they're not defensible; the reason the Arabs want Israel to do that is that it would make it easier for them to subsequently destroy Israel. Secondly, the Arabs and the Palestinians in particular don't actually want peace so giving concessions just encourages more war.

But the Palestinians are pretty much irrelevant with respect to Iran except to the extent that Iran has influence over Hamas.

[Al B. Sure!]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th_F..._fire_incident

The British haven't stopped being our allies as a result of that incident. The Israelis made a friendly fire mistake in the USS Liberty Incident; it happens.

It's more than a mistake when you have members of the US government and military officers determining it was intentional:

Secretary of State Dean Rusk:

I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident or some trigger-happy local commander. Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous.

Captain Ward Boston, JAGC, U.S. Navy, senior counsel for the Court of Inquiry:

The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack, which killed 34 American sailors and injured 172 others, was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew. Each evening, after hearing testimony all day, we often spoke our private thoughts concerning what we had seen and heard. I recall Admiral Kidd repeatedly referring to the Israeli forces responsible for the attack as 'murderous bastards.' It was our shared belief, based on the documentary evidence and testimony we received first hand, that the Israeli attack was planned and deliberate, and could not possibly have been an accident.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,100960,00.html

It was "one of the classic all-American cover-ups," said Ret. Adm. Thomas Moorer, a former Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman who spent a year investigating the attack as part of an independent panel he formed with other former military officials. The panel also included a former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia, James Akins.

"Why in the world would our government put Israel's interest ahead of our own?" Moorer asked from his wheelchair at the news conference. He was chief of naval operations at the time of the attack.

Moorer, who has long held that the attack was a deliberate act, wants Congress to investigate.

Moorer's panel suggested several possible reasons Israel might have wanted to attack a U.S. ship. Among them: Israel intended to sink the ship and blame Egypt because it might have brought the United States into the 1967 war.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/newspaper/eedition/chi-liberty_tuesoct02,0,43090.story

Except for McNamara, most senior administration officials from Secretary of State Dean Rusk on down privately agreed with Johnson's intelligence adviser, Clark Clifford, who was quoted in minutes of a National Security Council staff meeting as saying it was "inconceivable" that the attack had been a case of mistaken identity.

The attack "couldn't be anything else but deliberate," the NSA's director, Lt. Gen. Marshall Carter, later told Congress.

"I don't think you'll find many people at NSA who believe it was accidental," Benson Buffham, a former deputy NSA director, said in an interview.

"I just always assumed that the Israeli pilots knew what they were doing," said Harold Saunders, then a member of the National Security Council staff and later assistant secretary of state for Near Eastern and South Asian affairs.

I guess the words of a Secretary of State, a Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, a Lt. General and NSA director, a JAG officer, and a US ambassador isn't good enough...

It's very scary that the US put Israel above our own military. Very scary. We as American citizens should be terrified of that.

[regexcellent]

I've read a lot about it and none of the motives given for why the Israelis would deliberately attack the ship make any sense; not to mention the audio logs indicate the pilots flying the aircraft believed it was Egyptian.

Occam's razor strikes here and makes me inclined to believe that the whole "deliberate Israeli attack" thing is a conspiracy theory. Even if it's not it's not relevant anymore since that happened so long ago. The Japanese, after all, treacherously attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941.

[Al B. Sure!]

I've read a lot about it and none of the motives given for why the Israelis would deliberately attack the ship make any sense; not to mention the audio logs indicate the pilots flying the aircraft believed it was Egyptian.

Occam's razor strikes here and makes me inclined to believe that the whole "deliberate Israeli attack" thing is a conspiracy theory. Even if it's not it's not relevant anymore since that happened so long ago. The Japanese, after all, treacherously attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941.

A conspiracy theory held by a Secretary of State, a Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, a Lt. General/NSA director, a US ambassador...

Are you calling these men loonies?

[regexcellent]

I think they are incorrect.

[Al B. Sure!]

I think they are incorrect.

They were aware of intimate details of the case that you are not privy to. They were insisting that the military open up a new investigation until their deaths.

[Al B. Sure!]

I think they are incorrect.

They were aware of intimate details of the case that you are not privy to. They were insisting that the military open up a new investigation until their deaths.

[regexcellent]

It's all moot more than 40 years later anyway.

[Al B. Sure!]

It's all moot more than 40 years later anyway.

It says a lot about US policy that we put Israel above our own troops.

[Al B. Sure!]

And as long as there's a lot of Americans like you and HC, I guess we'll keep putting Israel above our own troops... even if it means we lose thousands of lives fighting in Iran.

[SlowwHand]

This is pretty cool.

Shortly after the ship's identity was confirmed, two IAF Hornet helicopters dispatched by Rabin arrived at the Liberty's location and offered assistance, which was refused. At about 4 pm, two hours after the attack began, Israel informed the U.S. embassy in Tel Aviv about the incident and later provided a helicopter to fly naval attaché Castle to the ship.[16] (pp. 32,34) When the ship was "confirmed to be American" the torpedo boats returned at about 4:40 pm to offer help;[39] it was refused by the Liberty.

[DinoDoc]

According to the deck officer, their reply was obscene. I can't say I blame them after the Israelis had been trying to kill them for more than an hour.

[Wezil]

It says a lot about US policy that we put Israel above our own troops.

You put politics over your own troops - see Afghanistan.

Everyone admits the situation is hopeless but no one talks about bringing your soldiers home before more needless deaths occur. Their lives apparently aren't important enough.