Azerbaijan allegedly gives Israel access to airbases

[onodera]

I guess Azerbaijan wants Iranian Azerbaijan as a reward in case an invasion actually happens.

[Al B. Sure!]

That's not trying to keep us out of another war; that's deliberately kicking our allies in the balls. It's a surefire way to find yourself alone and without friends.

Muhahaha. If only.

With friends like this, who needs enemies?

“It is inconceivable to me why Americans serving in peacekeeping roles must be harassed, endangered by an ally...It is evident to me, and the opinion of the U.S. commanders afloat and ashore, that the incidents between the Marines and the IDF are timed, orchestrated, and executed for obtuse Israeli political purposes.” - Commandant Gen. R. H. Barrow

[regexcellent]

The USS Liberty incident is really neither here nor there for the purposes of this discussion.

[Hauldren Collider]

It's also another conspiracy theory, one that Alby trots out at every opportunity.

[Aeson]

I think it fits perfectly in a thread where the premise is (without proof) supposing that an event was deliberately kicking your allies in the balls...

[regexcellent]

Not really. Even with the USS Liberty Incident and its surrounding controversies there really isn't doubt that Israel is a strong American ally today. The concern I have is that this sends a message to Israel and our other allies.

It appears that President Obama is willing to move forward with stronger oil sanctions. I pray that this will be enough.

[Aeson]

Not really.

You're "supposing" the leak was intentional, just as Al is "supposing" the USS Liberty was intentional. (Though he's probably just trolling you.)

[Al B. Sure!]

It's also another conspiracy theory, one that Alby trots out at every opportunity.

How about the way during the Lebanon crisis, Israel helicopters flew over Marine Corps camps with spotlights to make them easy targets for mortars?

There's a reason Commandant Barrow wrote the words I quoted earlier in a letter to Secretary of Defense Weinberger. He described systematic efforts by the IDF to put American lives at risk, including firing upon Marine Corps personnel. Do you not trust the word of General Barrow? Do you think he would just make that **** up?

March 14, 1983

Dear Mr. Secretary:

I must formally register my deep concern over the two unprovoked incidents in Beirut of this past weekend involving Marines of the Multinational Force and members of the Israeli Defense Forces. I had considered commenting on earlier incidents between Marines and the IDF but corrective measures, which were rapidly implemented in February 1983, appeared to defuse the situation. I can no longer remain silent on this continual problem of provocation from the IDF.

In addition to the U.S. MNF incidents, I have received information concerning serious harassing incidents by the IDF of U.S. officers attached to the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organization (UNTSO). These particular incidents involved USMC and USA officers in life-threatening situations, replete with verbal degradation of the officers, their uniform and country. Unfortunately, and of greater concern to me, incidents of this nature are the rule, rather than the exception.

It is evident to me, and the opinion of the U.S. Commanders afloat and ashore, that the incidents between the Marines and the IDF are timed, orchestrated, and executed for obtuse Israeli political purposes. The U.S. has been prompt and forthcoming in defusing previous problems and has established a viable communications procedure between the Marines and IDF. The IDF, however, persist in creating serious incidents.

I am distinctly proud to have Marines participating both as members of the Multinational Force and with UNTSO under the auspices of the United Nations. It is inconceivable to me why Americans -serving in peacekeeping roles-must be harassed, endangered, and degraded by an ally.

Previous demarches and diplomatic initiatives have not eliminated difficulties between our Marines and the IDF. Additionally, the expansion of communications links and the use of Liaison Officers will not preclude additional problems, unless the attitude and actions of the Israelis are altered. It is time for firm and strong action, to demonstrate to the Israelis that a role as a peacekeeper does not presume weakness. If anything, the Israelis should respect our efforts in this region.

Warm personal regards,

Sincerely,

R. H. Barrow

[regexcellent]

How about we not thread**** this into a boring discussion about the USS Liberty Incident or the 1982 Lebanon conflict?

[PLATO]

Maybe we could invite all of Irans Nuclear Scientists for a cruise on one of our Intel ships and then sail near an Israeli war zone.....

[Dinner]

You're "supposing" the leak was intentional, just as Al is "supposing" the USS Liberty was intentional. (Though he's probably just trolling you.)

No, Al has been anti-semetic and anti-Israeli since he began posting here. Remember how his original user name was Albert Speer who loved to post Nazi stuff and talk about destroying Israel? He was a little wannabe neo-Nazi which was funny because actual neo-Nazis would have hated him as much as they hated Jews since Albert is half-Arab but that fact seemed lost on him while he continually posted about making the Jews leave Israel and "go back to Germany".

[dannubis]

No, Al has been anti-semetic and anti-Israeli since he began posting here. Remember how his original user name was Albert Speer who loved to post Nazi stuff and talk about destroying Israel? He was a little wannabe neo-Nazi which was funny because actual neo-Nazis would have hated him as much as they hated Jews since Albert is half-Arab but that fact seemed lost on him while he continually posted about making the Jews leave Israel and "go back to Germany".

Dindin, having criticism about Israel and the way it handles conflict is not being anti semetic. And while I don't very often agree with what or why Alpie says things, I never heard him whishing for Jewish people to die.

[dannubis]

Tel Aviv is not Israel's capital...and your reference of a retarded conspiracy theory has earned you an ignore.



That includes them.

Ignoring other peoples opinions doesn't make you look smart in this discussion.

Yes, of course, but it will hurt them less than it will hurt us. And the fact they **** with KSA is also a very nice bonus.

[OzzyKP]

Not really. Even with the USS Liberty Incident and its surrounding controversies there really isn't doubt that Israel is a strong American ally today. The concern I have is that this sends a message to Israel and our other allies.

It appears that President Obama is willing to move forward with stronger oil sanctions. I pray that this will be enough.

What does the US get out of that alliance? It seems to be entirely one-way to me. Israel gets to provoke its neighbors knowing that Uncle Sam will pay for it all and back them up if they get in trouble. Then we pay the price. I'm 100% behind the security and safety of Israel and absolutely don't want anyone "wiping them off the map" and when that was a serious danger perhaps support from the US was warranted. But they seem pretty darn able to take care of themselves now. They've proven their strength in multiple wars. There is no danger of a serious invasion against them. So let them stand on their own. We get very little out of that relationship. So why or how are they a 'strong American ally'? And why is that worth keeping?

[regexcellent]

I'll address your points in no specific order.

Most of what we get out of the alliance is not public knowledge. It's pretty clear that Israel has the premier intelligence-gathering service in the Middle East and that we have access to a lot of that information.

What is public knowledge is that we have a very reliable ally in the Middle East which is a free and liberal democracy, unlike every other country in the Middle East. We also lose very little. There's this notion that nobody would hate the United States if we didn't support Israel. That is complete bull****; they'd hate us anyway. Not to mention that Israel is actually really convenient for a lot of Arab governments, which love nothing more than having a bogeyman next door to blame all their problems on, so supporting it doesn't lose any support for us with, e.g. the Saudis. Moreover, not supporting Israel is quite plainly the wrong thing to do from a moral perspective, in the same sense that supporting North Korea over South Korea would be the wrong thing to do.

Our ships also regularly visit Israeli ports for supplies.

If Israel were attacked and we weren't there to help then there is a very real chance that Israel would be destroyed. Israel's missile defense systems also were built with our help, so they are even more dependent on us if they face WMDs (nuclear, chemical, and radiological in particular). Israel would have lost the Yom Kippur War if Nixon hadn't resupplied the IDF.

A lot of our military doctrine comes from Israeli experience. The fact that Israel has been willing to share what it has learned in its countless wars and conflicts has been invaluable to us. As an example, the M2 Bradley was designed with experience the Israelis gained in the Yom Kippur War.

There are other reasons as well but I feel like this is a good start to it.