When is it okay to call someone a bigot or accuse them of hating?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Not from our end, we're not. But we don't make specific claims about who goes where, in any case.

Well, full communion meaning that Catholics can take communion at Orthodox Churches and Orthodox believers can take communion at Catholic Churches - I thought that was a deal worked out with Pope and Patriarch of (somewhere) during John Paul II's papacy.

[DaShi]

I've always seen Jews as believing the same God, but not having as complete understanding of God as those who are Christian. Not sure if you'd consider that "morally inferior". FWIW, I see Muslims in the same light.

The ****? I wouldn't call this hatred, but it is certainly looking down on others because they don't share the same religion as you, and thus not too far from it.

[Imran Siddiqui]

It is much different than having a political position and seeing people who don't believe the same way at not having as complete understanding of the issue?

[DaShi]

Obviously, yes. With politics there are actual facts to work with.

[Imran Siddiqui]

So do you consider you to be "certainly looking down on others" who have religious faith?

[Kidlicious]

The ****? I wouldn't call this hatred, but it is certainly looking down on others because they don't share
the same religion as you, and
thus not too far from it.

That's like telling people not to look down on the KKK. We believe all people are equal. We don't look down on anyone. Jews dont believe in Jesus so they are wrong. Its not looking down on them.

[Elok]

Well, full communion meaning that Catholics can take communion at Orthodox Churches and Orthodox believers can take communion at Catholic Churches - I thought that was a deal worked out with Pope and Patriarch of (somewhere) during John Paul II's papacy.

Nope. They're fine with us having communion there, but if we do, we effectively excommunicate ourselves. The RCC is still heretical from our POV.

The ****? I wouldn't call this hatred, but it is certainly looking down on others because they don't share the same religion as you, and thus not too far from it.

Er, I know you think we're all illogical and stupid and such, but what position do you expect us to take? "Yes, your understanding of theology is exactly as good as ours, including the parts which contradict what we say. No, that doesn't make one's choice of religion a complete irrelevance, why do you ask?" What Imran said is essentially the Orthodox position on the matter AFAIK; the fullness of the faith/the most complete understanding is ours, but that does not mean other faiths do not have their own wisdom from God.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Nope. They're fine with us having communion there, but if we do, we effectively excommunicate ourselves. The RCC is still heretical from our POV.

Ah! Good to know. Thanks!

[DaShi]

Er, I know you think we're all illogical and stupid and such, but what position do you expect us to take? "Yes, your understanding of theology is exactly as good as ours, including the parts which contradict what we say. No, that doesn't make one's choice of religion a complete irrelevance, why do you ask?"

I didn't say anything about being illogical or stupid. I'm just stating an inherent problem between those with different religious beliefs.

What Imran said is essentially the Orthodox position on the matter AFAIK; the fullness of the faith/the most complete understanding is ours, but that does not mean other faiths do not have their own wisdom from God.

No, he did not say anything like that. Maybe you're posting in the wrong thread.

[Kidlicious]

Every religion has the golden rule. Even humanism has the golden rule. The golden rule is not equivalent to believing in Jesus. Believing in Jesus is admitting that you can not follow the golden rule without God's help.

[Elok]

I didn't say anything about being illogical or stupid. I'm just stating an inherent problem between those with different religious beliefs.

What, that we can't hold an opinion while thinking that its opposite is equally true in the name of tolerance or something? If I believe God is right-handed and you believe He's a lefty, I can't think we're both right. At least, not in the same way.

No, he did not say anything like that. Maybe you're posting in the wrong thread.

Yes, he did, he just didn't use the language of Orthodox theology to do it.

[DaShi]

What, that we can't hold an opinion while thinking that its opposite is equally true in the name of tolerance or something? If I believe God is right-handed and you believe He's a lefty, I can't think we're both right. At least, not in the same way.

I've no clue what you are talking about. You seem only to want to make assumptions about what you think I believe rather than address the statement at hand.

"I've always seen Jews as believing the same God, but not having as complete understanding of God as those who are Christian"

This clearly states that he believes his understanding of god is superior to that of Jews, while trying to claim that he doesn't consider them morally inferior. Whether he think they obtain any wisdom from their beliefs is irrelevant only in that it is always less than the wisdom he receives from his religion. Thus, he clearly believes that Christians are superior to Jews in an aspect that any true religious person would consider extremely important.

[Elok]

Wha? He said nothing about moral inferiority one way or another. He just said they have an inferior understanding, which is pretty much necessary. If he thought Judaism was exactly as valid as his form of Christianity, that would leave him either believing two contradictory things or believing nothing at all. If there is a truth to be known, it stands to reason that some would be closer to it than others. Barring certain odd situations like each getting an equal number of aspects of the truth right, or some such. But the general idea of religion is knowing The Truth--not something that might be The Truth but then again so could Judaism so what the hey, but the actual Truth.

Supposing for the sake of argument that what Imran has is The Truth, then what Jews have is necessarily not The Truth insofar as it differs from what Imran has. If what Imran has is not The Truth, then he should get cracking and find what The Truth really is.

[Jon Miller]

You called me a bigot for my beliefs that others were bigots. It's a perfect hypocrisy that you don't claim it for yourself. (Doubly hilarious because of the Christian values you profess to hold. Ever read about the mote and the beam?)



I tolerate things which should be tolerated. I don't tolerate things which should not be tolerated. You will have to be more specific about which issues I am not being tolerant on for me to enlighten you as to why that would be in that specific case. As for those who want to deny marriage to consenting adults, I do not tolerate their attempts to enforce their bigotry. I do however tolerate their right to hold their bigotry. And I certainly tolerate my right to point out their bigotry when it suits me.

You called me a bigot for expressing my views. Then you try to talk to me about tolerance. It's rather funny really.

Bigotry is prejudice without understanding and/or empathy and/or viewing things from the other's perspective. Basically due to them being different from you.

You are being a bigot because you are saying that those who think/say that some group should not marry some other group are racists/bigots/etc. You don't understand them, you claim that their motivations are racist/bigoted/etc due to your lack of understanding.

I am not being a bigot in pointing this out to you because I do understand your perspective. I am not claiming your motivations are contrary to what you claim they are. I understand them, I understand your prejudice, and I understand that it is due to them being different from you. You do not understand their motivations/thoughts.

I do, I actually disagree with them (at least in the cases we have discussed) and would argue with them. But I wouldn't say that they are bigots. I am not prejudiced against them.

Let's take another example. I am prejudiced against pedophiles. I don't think this makes me a bigot because I do try to see things from their perspective. I do even understand wanting to have sex with someone one shouldn't (a girl who wasn't interested in me, a girl who was 15 when I was in my 20s, etc). I can place myself enough into their shoes to see things from their perspective, and their pedophiliac actions are still abhorrent.

Yes, we all sin, but we should be prejudiced against sin. Particularly sins like rape/murder/pedophilia/etc.

Prejudice based on understanding the other is not bigotry. Prejudice based on not understanding the other is bigotry.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Wha? He said nothing about moral inferiority one way or another. He just said they have an inferior understanding, which is pretty much necessary. If he thought Judaism was exactly as valid as his form of Christianity, that would leave him either believing two contradictory things or believing nothing at all. If there is a truth to be known, it stands to reason that some would be closer to it than others. Barring certain odd situations like each getting an equal number of aspects of the truth right, or some such. But the general idea of religion is knowing The Truth--not something that might be The Truth but then again so could Judaism so what the hey, but the actual Truth.

Supposing for the sake of argument that what Imran has is The Truth, then what Jews have is necessarily not The Truth insofar as it differs from what Imran has. If what Imran has is not The Truth, then he should get cracking and find what The Truth really is.

Really I don't understand people who think that Christians/Muslims/Jews/Humanists/etc should consider everyone else's beliefs has equally valid.

It is completely nonsense.

Well said Elok.

JM