Seriously, GOP? Really?

[notyoueither]

I was actually reading an article recently that the French system (which still works) is actually quite similar to the US system but with a low level public baseline (which was only added in the 90s).

When looking around to see what was going on where, I saw it as quite common for basic provision of healthcare to be universal with allowances for the wealthy to spend more if they choose to do so.

[DinoDoc]

When looking around to see what was going on where, I saw it as quite common for basic provision of healthcare to be universal with allowances for the wealthy to spend more if they choose to do so.

What the hell is wrong with Canada then?

[C0ckney]

I was actually reading an article recently that the French system (which still works) is actually quite similar to the US system but with a low level public baseline (which was only added in the 90s).

do you have a link the article. my understanding is that the french system has little in common with the US one, but it's been a while since i looked into it.

[Jon Miller]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2012/04/03/is-health-care-in-america-as-market-oriented-as-frances/

JM

[notyoueither]

What the hell is wrong with Canada then?

The ability for people to pay more for better service is undermined or made impossible by measures to assure the single-payer system.

It is illegal for a Canadian to have insurance to cover anything that is covered by the healthcare system. The lack of people able to pay (through insurance) makes private medicine uneconomic. The result is that the very wealthy will pay out of pocket at a small number of facilities or go to another country to go to the front of the line.

[C0ckney]

thanks jon, the article is rather vague though. a lot of 'i think' and 'i'm not really sure how this works' in there. he doesn't seem to possess a deep understand of how the healthcare systems work (although in fairness he admits to this).

this in particular struck me.

First of all, the French healthcare system is built on a large, highly-regulated private sector. Unlike Britain’s NHS, the government doesn’t own everything. Some hospitals are public, but many are private and for-profit. Indeed, there are publicly-traded hospital chains, just like in the U.S. Most doctors and nurses work in private practice. Even most of the ambulances are private. The sector is highly regulated and subsidized to be sure, but that’s also true in the U.S.

ok, sure. but subsidies and regulations cover a multitude of things which obviously will dramatically affect outcomes. saying glibly that both countries regulate and subsidise healthcare without any further information or analysis about what that means isn't very helpful.

[DinoDoc]

The ability for people to pay more for better service is undermined or made impossible by measures to assure the single-payer system.

Wasn't Canada prior to Chaoulli v. Quebec one of the few Democratic countries in the world to make private medicine out and out illegal?

[notyoueither]

Wasn't Canada prior to Chaoulli v. Quebec one of the few Democratic countries in the world to make private medicine out and out illegal?

Private medicine is not out and out illegal. The ability for the average person to pay for it through insurance is.

That decision only applies to residents of Quebec, BTW. It is based on a provision of the Quebec Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms, not the Federal Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

[Jon Miller]

ok, sure. but subsidies and regulations cover a multitude of things which obviously will dramatically affect outcomes. saying glibly that both countries regulate and subsidise healthcare without any further information or analysis about what that means isn't very helpful.

Fair point, I think in the US the regulation mostly serves to drive the price up while other countries seem to have done a better job at regulating the price down.

JM

[kentonio]

Lie of the Year 2011: 'Republicans voted to end Medicare'

Politifact got rightly ripped for that nonsense. Republicans voted to destroy the existing system and replace it with something crap which would cause a lot of people to suffer. ****, its hardly a damn secret that ending medicare has been a wish of the hard right for decades.

[kentonio]

Here's an analysis of quite why it was so stupid.

Politifact Has Decided That A Totally True Thing Is The "Lie Of The Year," For Some Reason

[Dr Strangelove]

thanks jon, the article is rather vague though. a lot of 'i think' and 'i'm not really sure how this works' in there. he doesn't seem to possess a deep understand of how the healthcare systems work (although in fairness he admits to this).

this in particular struck me.



ok, sure. but subsidies and regulations cover a multitude of things which obviously will dramatically affect outcomes. saying glibly that both countries regulate and subsidise healthcare without any further information or analysis about what that means isn't very helpful.

What we seem to fail to comprehend are two major differences between the systems as they stand now. ( "Obamacare" won't become fully effective for another 2 years, assuming the Supremes don't perform an abortion.) First, employers in France are required to buy health insurance for their employees. There may be some exceptions for employers who are unable to afford helath insurance. Here in the US employer funded insurance is becoming less common by the year. Furthermore a significant portion of the employer funded insurance is essentially worthless, i.e., limited in what conditions and tratements are covered and deductables that the employees can't afford. How about a $ 3500 deductable for a minimum wage employee, i.e., someone who supports a family on less than $18,000 per year? Currently there are no government regulations fixing the minimum requirements for private insurance.
Second, government funded health insurance in France is available to everyone, not just children and the disabled. Over here if you want government insurance you have to ditch your spouse or you have to be so messed up or old that your life is essentially over anyway.

[Hauldren Collider]

Kentonio, your ignorance and stupidity has reached a new low.

[Dinner]

kentonio, is there something fundamentally evil about having to pay for your own health care, even in part?

The problem is your average 80 year old couldn't buy insurance if they wanted to. Most companies simply won't cover them.

[Dinner]

What's wrong with a voucher system? If it's less cost-effective or something, that would be a reason to oppose it. If you just hate vouchers because you hate vouchers then that's different.

Because right now all elderly are 100% assured that if they get sick their medical costs will be covered. Under a voucher system they will have some amount of limited coverage and if that amount is exceeded then that's it, tough ****, either come up with $150,000 on your own to pay for your cancer treatment or die. That's the problem.