Thanks for bringing that to my attention, Boris. I was under the impression the RCC actually gave a **** and wasn't just using this to make a fuss. Now, it's not just a Catholic thing--there are other churches with similar beliefs, and I don't think they should be made to violate them either--but that pretty much eliminates the argument from the Catholic end, I think.
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Originally posted by Elok View PostAn even larger percentage of Catholics ignore the church's teaching on contraception in the first place. Irrelevant. A religious organization doesn't want to act against its own teachings. That a large percentage of its flock is disobedient is neither here nor there. As is my own belief, and yours, that those particular teachings are utter nonsense.
The administration has achieved a largely symbolic victory at the price of pissing off the RCC, conservative Catholics, and even a few moderate Catholics.
Which works out to the same thing. Their money is paying for contraception.
Reasonable points, but still not justification for requiring a church to go against its own teachings. And $50 per month IS pretty damned cheap, and your report said that was at the high end. You pay more than that for cable, FFS. If you can't afford that, that's an argument for raising the minimum wage, not for insurance covering the pill.
And $50/month is a big deal to those making very little, yes. Did you read the study I cited? Increased subsidization to birth control leads to dramatic increases in its use. It's easy to sit from a perspective of privilege and poo-poo that amount, but it's not at all insignificant.
This is assuming the government doesn't just subsidize the bloody things itself, or pay for an NGO like PP to do it. That might open up a "not with my tax dollars" can of worms, but I doubt it. Most objections I've heard to government funding of PP involve its abortion activities and the silly fig leaf that is the Hyde Amendment (though at $500 a pop I doubt the abortion part really needs funding anyway; odds are all the funds are in fact going towards other services).Last edited by Boris Godunov; February 8, 2012, 23:54.Tutto nel mondo è burla
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Originally posted by Elok View PostMost of all, though, I don't like the specious distinction between churches and church-run institutions. It's not their place to say what is or isn't part of the church's core mission.
What's to stop a church from designing any number of things as its "core mission" to avoid any regulation it didn't want to follow? Keep in mind that church-affiliated hospitals, charities and so on already have to follow a ton of employment regulations for which they aren't exempted. Can't use slave labor just because you're a church, nope. Can't exploit children. Can't discriminate based on gender, race, etc. Why should we tolerate them discriminating against employees who don't follow their beliefs when it comes to their providing insurance like all other employees have to do?Tutto nel mondo è burla
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Originally posted by Elok View PostNot necessarily, if it's viewed as a matter of religious liberty. However,
There are a good number of religious leaders coming out in favor of this rule because it's about coverage of an essential part of women's healthcare. Those opposed to it don't speak for religious people as a whole.Tutto nel mondo è burla
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Originally posted by Dinner View PostI believe that is correct as written in the health care reform bill which passed a couple of years ago.
Originally posted by Elok View PostThere is an American tradition of religion as a private affair, but this is hardly the traditional m.o. of all religions. Certainly not for Catholicism, which has had its schools and hospitals for centuries.“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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Originally posted by Boris Godunov View PostConsidering that the forces screaming about this provision are largely the same ones who oppose universal healthcare“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui View PostThey aren't. IIRC Catholic Bishops were for Obamacare, as it advanced the Catholic mission of providing for the poor - with some being very worried it could mean they'd be required to fund abortions or contraception, but the Progressive Catholic Bishops said that'll never happen. Some of those folks are pissed because they stuck their necks out to be told "I told you so".Tutto nel mondo è burla
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Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui View PostThey aren't. IIRC Catholic Bishops were for Obamacare, as it advanced the Catholic mission of providing for the poor - with some being very worried it could mean they'd be required to fund abortions or contraception, but the Progressive Catholic Bishops said that'll never happen. Some of those folks are pissed because they stuck their necks out to be told "I told you so".I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio
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Originally posted by Boris Godunov View PostProgressive Catholic Bishops aren't the ones screaming about this move,
it's the same group that opposed the Affordable Care Act in 2010.
Last edited by DinoDoc; February 9, 2012, 01:33.I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio
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Originally posted by DinoDoc View PostI wonder how Sister Carol Keehan feels right now given her PR work in favor of the law. I'm genuinely curious why the Admin is trying to openly pick a fight with a voting block he won last go around. What's the upside here given that they even have liberals either speaking out against it or saying the policy has been badly mishandled?
Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.
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