How famous are Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi in the USA?

[MikeH]

For example, if I started yammering about how the Queen, or the state-allied Anglican church, just shows how you Brits have an unhealthy and stupid reverence for authority or something along those lines, I imagine you'd give a reply along the same lines I did: "no, a good number of us don't care for X, its cultural relevance is basically nil, and we don't instantly all become dullards and slaves just by supporting a parasite class."

XPost

I'd probably say that I think that as a country we have an unhealthy and stupid reverence for tradition and history rather than authority. And a bit of a chip on our shoulder about having been incredibly powerful a little while back.

[Elok]

What do you want them to do, rename their country? It would look kind of silly if the "united kingdom" wasn't a monarchy.

Are you suggesting that the monarchy does not presently look silly?

[DinoDoc]

AKA 2 of the most famous athletes in the world.

Apparently not. Evidence: This thread.

[MikeH]

Don't see why it would be silly keeping the name, represents the history. We could just be Great Britain and Northern Ireland like the olympic team.

[MikeH]

Apparently not. Evidence: This thread.

The World != American Polytubbies.

[Elok]

I'd probably say that I think that as a country we have an unhealthy and stupid reverence for tradition and history rather than authority.

But you see, much of the support from the pledge comes from a similar impulse; it's part of an American tradition, with all sorts of romanticized ideas about fresh-faced youngsters bringing apples to school before jerking off to a Norman Rockwell print, and so on. If you asked an ardent supporter they wouldn't say as much in so many words--more likely they'd say something irrelevant like "our boys in the military fought and died for your freedom not to say the pledge, you ungrateful little ****"--but the impulse is largely romantic.

[MikeH]

Still retarded and illogical in both cases.

[DinoDoc]

The World != American Polytubbies.

Lies and heresy.

[MikeH]

But you see, much of the support from the pledge comes from a similar impulse; it's part of an American tradition, with all sorts of romanticized ideas about fresh-faced youngsters bringing apples to school before jerking off to a Norman Rockwell print, and so on. If you asked an ardent supporter they wouldn't say as much in so many words--more likely they'd say something irrelevant like "our boys in the military fought and died for your freedom not to say the pledge, you ungrateful little ****"--but the impulse is largely romantic.

"our boys in the military fought and died for your freedom not to say the pledge, you ungrateful little ****" , so you have to say it?!

There was an interesting case recently in the UK. A muslim group was banned by the government for saying they'd burn a giant poppy on Armistice day as a protest against the ongoing war in Afghanistan.

A good proportion of flag waving "ban teh evil muslim" type reactions from the press, but much less widely reported was a lot of Veterans saying "well this is the kind of freedom of speech we fought to protect".

[Elok]

Still retarded and illogical in both cases.

Yes, but do you think I ought to be as freaked out about some of your compatriots' reverence for the Queen as you folks apparently are about our pledge? Because honestly, I'm not.

[Elok]

"our boys in the military fought and died for your freedom not to say the pledge, you ungrateful little ****" , so you have to say it?!

I was actually thinking of a cartoon I saw on Facebook (I'm Facebook friends with people of all sorts of political persuasions), with the same basic message. The schoolteacher's wheeling in a disabled veteran while saying, "Bobby, I respect your right to not say the pledge, but here's a fellow who got hurt for your freedom to disrespect your country, miserable bastard that you are." Okay, that's a bit of a paraphrase, but the basic idea is that you can opt out but we'll try to guilt-trip the hell out of you. You say the pledge because it's AMERICAN, dammit, and AMERICANS do AMERICAN things in AMERICA! At least in some parts of the country. Even then, I hope you're getting that it's largely a symbol, something you do to show that you fit in.

There was an interesting case recently in the UK. A muslim group was banned by the government for saying they'd burn a giant poppy on Armistice day as a protest against the ongoing war in Afghanistan.

A good proportion of flag waving "ban teh evil muslim" type reactions from the press, but much less widely reported was a lot of Veterans saying "well this is the kind of freedom of speech we fought to protect".

And we have very similar controversies over burning the flag. It's a perennial GOP hobby to introduce an amendment that bans flag-burning so as to get around that pesky Supreme Court. The amendment never goes anywhere, possibly because very few people actually burn the flag as a form of protest these days. But that doesn't stop the media circus every time.

[MikeH]

If I am "freaked out", which I don't think I am, it's only because I know people for whom the whole pledge thing caused all kinds of teenage unpleasantness.

If the Queen had upset friends of yours I'm sure you'd take it more personally.

[MikeH]

I was actually thinking of a cartoon I saw on Facebook (I'm Facebook friends with people of all sorts of political persuasions), with the same basic message. The schoolteacher's wheeling in a disabled veteran while saying, "Bobby, I respect your right to not say the pledge, but here's a fellow who got hurt for your freedom to disrespect your country, miserable bastard that you are." Okay, that's a bit of a paraphrase, but the basic idea is that you can opt out but we'll try to guilt-trip the hell out of you. You say the pledge because it's AMERICAN, dammit, and AMERICANS do AMERICAN things in AMERICA! At least in some parts of the country. Even then, I hope you're getting that it's largely a symbol, something you do to show that you fit in.

Exactly! And it's this kind of thing that leads to the horrendous "it's unAMERICAN to criticise the Guvmint" crap you got after Sept 11.

[MikeH]

Horrendous because that kind of bull**** is really what leads to dangerous nationalist stuff.

[Elok]

If I am "freaked out", which I don't think I am, it's only because I know people for whom the whole pledge thing caused all kinds of teenage unpleasantness.

If the Queen had upset friends of yours I'm sure you'd take it more personally.

Possibly, but I hope I wouldn't claim that being expected to say "God Save the Queen" at a certain time amounts to "indoctrination." That's simply insulting, it implies we're complete dullards. If Aeson wants to think his brain works that way, he's welcome, but mine doesn't and neither does anyone's that I know.