[SERIOUS] Is Kidicious getting dumber?

[loinburger]

That doesn't make sense. In the future whatever it is you do after you return to the present has already happened.

Not if you go with a Many Worlds interpretation of chaos. You travel from Present A to Future A, but then when you return to Present A you turn it into Present A1 which will lead to Future A1. Whether Future A then ceases to exist is another matter altogether.

[Aeson]

There is free will, you're just learning what choices were/are/will be made.

No, that's determinism. With time travel like you are talking about, the choices were dictated before the actors were ever even born.

[giblets]

Not if you go with a Many Worlds interpretation of chaos. You travel from Present A to Future A, but then when you return to Present A you turn it into Present A1 which will lead to Future A1. Whether Future A then ceases to exist is another matter altogether.

I think you're right, now I understand why people with time machines haven't perfected the markets.

[Kidlicious]

BTW, it is pretty clear that belief in a unique and omnipotent deity requires pure determinism to be consistent. Anything else is an untenable and dishonest intellectual contorsion.

Why should you be consistent in your beliefs about the supernatural? A God that can create the laws must be greater than the laws.

edit: What if you believe God is omnipotent?

[giblets]

No, that's determinism. With time travel like you are talking about, the choices were dictated before the actors were ever even born.

No, the actors make them after they're born. You just know what those choices are.

[Fake Boris]

Why should you be consistent in your beliefs about the supernatural? A God that can create the laws must be greater than the laws.

This is the classical "third man" problem human reason cannot get out of. Its persistence is not a warrant for mindless bull****, though.

[Aeson]

No, the actors make them after they're born. You just know what those choices are.

You can only know what those choices are if they are predetermined. If there was free will you'd go back and people would chose very different things meaning you weren't in the future for that timeline at all.

[Jon Miller]

BTW, it is pretty clear that belief in a unique and omnipotent deity requires pure determinism to be consistent. Anything else is an untenable and dishonest intellectual contorsion.

No, this isn't clear at all. In fact, you are wrong.

You have obviously not thought much about causation and time.

JM

[Jon Miller]

You can only know what those choices are if they are predetermined. If there was free will you'd go back and people would chose very different things meaning you weren't in the future for that timeline at all.

How so?

What does 'going back in time' mean?

JM

[Fake Boris]

No, this isn't clear at all. In fact, you are wrong.

You have obviously not thought much about causation and time.

JM

I actually have.

[Kidlicious]

This is the classical "third man" problem human reason cannot get out of. Its persistence is not a warrant for mindless bull****, though.

Define mindless bull****. If you accept the claim that God is beyond the laws then you have to have faith in something beyond the laws or else be a materialist.

[Jon Miller]

A natural conclusion, btw, is that God has already made all the best decisions, and so God does not change (no longer has 'free will' if you will, there was just the 'initial' will).

This has nothing to do with our free will.

JM

[Fake Boris]

Define mindless bull****. If you accept the claim that God is beyond the laws then you have to have faith in something beyond the laws or else be a materialist.

If God is beyond the law, then

1) there is no restriction on what can be said about him
2) we have no faculty to distinguish natural and supernatural events

[Jon Miller]

I actually have.

Then why are you saying such bull**** that a little reading of philosophy would demonstrate is false?

Not that you are wrong, but that it isn't clear at all.

I know you are a philosopher, what is your excuse?

Jon

[Fake Boris]

A natural conclusion, btw, is that God has already made all the best decisions, and so God does not change (no longer has 'free will' if you will, there was just the 'initial' will).

This has nothing to do with our free will.

JM

Well, then it would mean that he is not all-powerful.

I believe that what you just expressed is a thesis that can be consistent, however not with omnipotence.