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The whole "omniscience + free will" thing is contradictory, but if we assume that we have free will then that limits God's omniscience. "Here's a test, maybe they'll pass it, maybe not, let's find out." On the other hand, take away free will and there's not much point (from God's perspective) to our existence - he knows from day one what we're going to do, so he might as well short-circuit the whole experiment and send everybody (including everybody yet to be born) to heaven or hell immediately.
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That isn't logical at all.
Just because I know what Lincoln chose does not mean that he didn't have free will to choose what he did.
JMJon Miller-
I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.Comment
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I'm not the one proposing the "omniscience + free will"... I'm just dealing with the generally accepted "givens" for the hypothetical. I myself believe in causality and don't think there's room for a truley omniscient being either.Comment
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You didn't create Lincoln knowing what he would do before he did it though...Originally posted by Jon Miller View PostComment
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If you built a time machine and visited the future and found out some stuff about what people did in the intermediate time period and then returned to the present would that negate free will?
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Jon Miller-
I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.Comment
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Jon, there's a difference between knowing what he did and knowing what he will do.Originally posted by Jon Miller View PostIn Soviet Russia, Fake borises YOU.Comment
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Time travel (and things like "existing outside of time") is nonsensical when it comes to causality, free will, and all that good stuff. If I were writing a time travel story then the act of traveling back in time (after having traveled to the future to glean knowledge of what will come to pass) would inject enough chaos into the system that the knowledge gained from the future would be of limited value; in addition, my time travel story would probably include some quantum tomfoolery that would inject chaos all throughout the system independent of the chaos I injected by traveling back in time.<p style="font-size:1024px">HTML is disabled in signatures </p>Comment
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It would suggest there is no free will if you could do that. (It wouldn't negate it, because it never could have been there in the first place.)Originally posted by gribbler View PostIf you built a time machine and visited the future and found out some stuff about what people did in the intermediate time period and then returned to the present would that negate free will?Comment
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So you are saying God did not create the world, humans, or anything? He just watches?Originally posted by Jon Miller View PostComment
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How does free will make time travel impossible? That doesn't make sense.Originally posted by Aeson View PostComment
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BTW, it is pretty clear that belief in a unique and omnipotent deity requires pure determinism to be consistent. Anything else is an untenable and dishonest intellectual contorsion.In Soviet Russia, Fake borises YOU.Comment
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Because time travel like you are talking about (eg. you can go visit and come back and know what's going to happen) would necessitate that the future is already fixed. As such there can be no deviation from the actions that are predestined, and that's definitely not "free will".Originally posted by gribbler View PostComment
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That doesn't make sense. In the future whatever it is you do after you return to the present has already happened.Originally posted by loinburger View PostComment
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There is free will, you're just learning what choices were/are/will be made.Originally posted by Aeson View PostComment
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