Clement Attlee was not a good Prime Minister. Discuss.

[notyoueither]

If America hadn't stood where it did in the Cold War, Europe would have rearmed after WWII considerably quicker and more powerfully than it did. You may want to remember that Europe did a fair bit of ass kicking itself over the last few centuries, and things like the nuclear bomb were not solely American inventions.

I really do not want to pile on, but you are ****ing delusional.

You have been well and truely trolled.

Have a nice day.

[molly bloom]

Churchill is remembered throughout the world as one of the world's greatest wartime leaders.

Almost no one outside England knows who Clement Attlee was, because he didn't do anything worth remembering.

So you don't know anything of his legacy. Would it be easier to admit that ?

By the way, 'remembering Churchill as a great wartime leader' tells us nothing of what you imagine his legacy to be. So you're not making a comparison, you're just making unsupported statements.

Whadda shock.

[molly bloom]

That's not efficient at all.

Depends on the method of death.

Having recently spent time in a hospital ward I met several elderly patients with a range of ailments including terminal liver cancer, alcohol related dementia, stroke, etc, etc. I'm sure their relatives or loved ones think their lives are very precious (and so might they themselves) and yet is the cost of keeping someone alive for few more months despite their terminal diagnosis really the best way of spending that money ?

If we want to be efficient let's dispose of the bedsitting cases with a largish dose of a morphine derivative. The relatives can have a brief period of mourning, then get on with their (interrupted) lives. If the dead have gold teeth or any metal pins or plates, I'm sure these could be reused.


After all, the terminally ill are just taking up space.

[molly bloom]

the Marshall Plan (which helped rebuild their country).

Did it ? Do show us some details.

I know about the Polish Resettlement Corps, one of Attlee's government's legacies, which certainly did help rebuild the country.

[molly bloom]

kentonio is making a pretty good case re: British ignorance.

Much the same could be said about Americans' knowledge of Attlee's achievements, since I haven't seen a comparison of Churchill's peacetime government and Attlee's.

Attlee of course was a member of the U.K.'s wartime government of national unity, and along with other Labour Party members like Greenwood, opposed any negotiated settlement (through Mussolini) with Hitler (unlike the Tory Lord Halifax, for instance).

[molly bloom]

That jab would be better used in a thread that wasn't started by an American specifically to discuss the accomplishments of a British Prime Minister.

And we're still waiting for you to show us what you know of Attlee's achievements, other than an ability to inspire quips from Churchill.

[molly bloom]

Right, because the Marshall Plan was all about bullying. Do you have any idea exactly how much the United States did to rebuild not only continental Europe, but your little island kingdom as well?

Beyond the name of the Marshall Plan, it's a sure bet you don't.

And do you not realize how very real the threat of the soviets was following V-E day?

Right. They were just on the brink of carrying out massed amphibious landings on the Channel coasts as I recall, only the American threat of A bombs stopped 'em.

Ho ho ho.

[molly bloom]

The only ass kicking Europe did over the last few centuries was tormenting and enslaving backwards, technologically insignificant foreign lands and then in the early 20th century bombing itself into a parking lot twice over. I am not impressed.

Who are the Sioux ? Who are the Filipinos ? Who are the Nicaraguans ?

Yes, all those technological superpowers that the U.S. valiantly fought or invaded to save humanity from their domination.

[kentonio]

No, I'm very right. The British Army surely wasn't going to stop a Red Army that had just finished curbstomping the Wehrmacht.

I really do not want to pile on, but you are ****ing delusional.

No, the delusional part is the idea that a Red Army that had been carrying out some of the most bloody fighting of the war for years could just carry on its merry way across Europe without a break. The Russians needed the time to restructure, modernize and rebuild like everyone else did. If the Soviets had tried to just carry on rolling, their supply lines would have been stretched way too far, and in case you forgot they would have to have occupied the whole of Germany. Britain and France were exhausted, but they still had armies, including significant commonwealth forces. The whole thing would have dragged out into a bloody stalemate. The soviets would have faced exactly the same problem Germany had when it came to Sealion, they simply didn't have anything like the navy they would have needed to carry out an invasion of Britain.

However please continue to have happy daydreams about how the Red Army was an otherworldly supernatural devil force that could just ignore the same rules everyone else has to live by.

[kentonio]

Nor would the French Army, which at the time basically didn't exist. So take the European militaries. Subtract the Germans, the French and the British. What's left?

Answer: The forces the United States kindly left behind to keep y'all from worshiping Stalin.

It's quite incredible how lacking in knowledge some of you can be. The Free French Forces numbered around a 1.3 million by the end of the war. The British army was at around 2.9 million. A newly liberated France that came under threat again would have resulted in a greatly increased recruitment rate for reasons of national pride if nothing else, and while Germany would have been occupied, an occupying army that is still at war, is a very different beast to one that is at peace and can focus on subduing the populace.

Try learning something once in a while.

[Tupac Shakur]

I have a hard time believing you actually don't know anything about the US President who dropped the bombs on Japan, oversaw the Marshall Plan, began the policy of containing the Soviet Union that lasted throughout the Cold War, carried out the Berlin Airlift, established NATO, and led America through the worst of the Korean War.

Also, Truman might not have been the best example you could've come up with for a "peacetime" leader.

It's funny how many of those achievements could include the words "alongside Attlee".

Only two really, the Berlin Airlift and the creation of NATO.

So you don't know anything of his legacy. Would it be easier to admit that ?

I surely seem to know about Attlee's legacy given that I started a thread on the subject and critiqued his legacy in the first post. The only reason I would need to admit that I don't know anything about his legacy is if you're accusing me of being a Google historian like yourself. That accusation is fair game if you want to make it, but you should really be more explicit if you're going to do so.

[Kuciwalker]

It's quite incredible how lacking in knowledge some of you can be. The Free French Forces numbered around a 1.3 million by the end of the war. The British army was at around 2.9 million. A newly liberated France that came under threat again would have resulted in a greatly increased recruitment rate for reasons of national pride if nothing else, and while Germany would have been occupied, an occupying army that is still at war, is a very different beast to one that is at peace and can focus on subduing the populace.

Try learning something once in a while.

@ the idea of the Free French standing against the 1945 Red Army.

[Tupac Shakur]

And we're still waiting for you to show us what you know of Attlee's achievements, other than an ability to inspire quips from Churchill.

Read the ****ing thread.

[KrazyHorse]

Would they have lasted as long as the regular french army did against the Wehrmacht in 1940?

[Tupac Shakur]

Would they have lasted as long as the regular french army did against the Wehrmacht in 1940?

No. The Red Army in 1945 was the most fearsome force of the entire war (just look at how easily they annihilated the Japanese in Manchuria) while the Free French forces were a joke.