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  • Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui View Post
    And who gave them what was necessary to make the discovery and develop it? I'd say a divine spirit was with them.
    Chance and luck was with Fleming, and wartime planning resulted in the development of penicillin, since a wide spectrum drug such as it was urgently required in WWII.

    Sounds less 'magical' than God directing them from behind the curtain, but it is in fact the prosaic truth.

    Alexander Fleming (born 1881) was a Scottish biologist who published extensively in several fields, including bacteriology, immunology, and chemotherapy. He’s most well-known for the discovery of the first antibiotic—penicillin—but interestingly enough, he had little to do with actually getting the substance mass-produced for human use.


    Fleming began his work on antibacterial substances after the First World War, during which he had witnessed countless soldier’s deaths due to septicemia which resulted from infected wound sites.


    In 1928, Fleming was in the midst of investigating a genus of bacteria called staphylococci, and it was during September of that year that he made a serendipitous discovery. The story goes that Fleming was somewhat messy in the lab, and had returned from a vacation to find many of his bacteria culture dishes had been contaminated with mold. He later realized that on one of the dishes, the mold colony had a clear zone around it where bacteria could not grow.


    Fleming identified the mold as Penicillium, isolated an extract of the unknown agent, and named it penicillin. He spent some time investigating its antibacterial effects and published his findings to surprisingly little fanfare. He subsequently found that cultivating the mold and extracting penicillin was a laborious task, and because of this and his conviction that the agent could not work effectively in the human body, he eventually abandoned his work.

    Florey & Chain: Testing and Mass Production

    In 1939, Ernst Chain, a biochemist who had fled to Britain from Nazi Germany, came across Alexander Fleming’s published work on penicillin. He was greatly interested, and soon began working on isolating penicillin. Together with lab supervisor Howard Florey, he isolated the antibacterial agent in greater quantity than Fleming had been able to achieve, and then tested the extract by injecting it into two mice which had been infected with a bacterial disease.

    The mice recovered, and the two men then tested the penicillin further in a much larger trial run with fifty mice. They subsequently made enough of the substance to use it in two or three people who were dying from bacterial infections. These experiments proved that penicillin would work effectively in humans, but there was a huge stumbling block, in that it was enormously difficult to isolate enough penicillin to treat even one person. With the Second World War underway, the situation was becoming desperate.

    Ernst Chain was the driving force behind isolating and testing penicillin, but when it came to manufacturing on a large scale, it was Howard Florey who made more of a contribution, by locating several U.S. companies which were willing to provide resources when U.K. factories were occupied with the war effort.

    Mass production of penicillin began, but soon it became clear that the strain of penicillin which Fleming had originally discovered just wasn’t yielding enough of the drug. A hunt for a better source of penicillin ensued, and eventually, in 1943, a lab worker named Mary Hunt provided the goods – a cantaloupe from her own fridge, which was infected with Penicillin chysogeum.
    Penicillin was discovered by Alexander Fleming, but it wasn’t until Howard Florey and Ernst Chain came across Fleming’s research that the first antibiotic was mass-produced for human use.


    that's something I just can't explain. All I know is that I witnessed a physical miracle.
    No, you witnessed something for which you don't have an explanation.

    There's a difference.

    Only if you can rule out all possible instances of an organic, physical, and above all, natural cause, can you say you witnessed something for which there is no possible rational physical explanation.

    In the 19th Century, many of today's technological achievements would have seemed little short of miraculous (as would broad spectrum antibiotics, heart and lung transplants, brain shunts, et cetera.
    Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.

    ...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915

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    • I actually find the idea that some supernatural being was behind humanities achievements quite offensive.
      Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
      Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
      We've got both kinds

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      • Originally posted by Kidicious View Post
        I already know what you think about dictionary definitions.
        So you rely for the definition of the words of the language you speak on what ?


        Random communications from your fillings ? Sunspots ?

        The mind boggles.
        Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.

        ...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915

        Comment


        • Originally posted by MikeH View Post
          I actually find the idea that some supernatural being was behind humanities achievements quite offensive.
          We're all just vehicles for the divine driver. I have no free will.

          Why on earth any divine being would want a bunch of lumpen automata is mercifully beyond me. That said, I actually enjoyed reading 'Paradise Lost', but then the Devil is the most likeable character in it.
          Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.

          ...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915

          Comment


          • Originally posted by molly bloom View Post
            That would be British citizen of Irish descent and dual nationality, bloom. Ahem.
            Nitpicky internet warrior needs use for free time badly!
            1011 1100
            Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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            • Originally posted by Elok View Post
              Nitpicky internet warrior needs use for free time badly!
              I'm just enjoying being relatively healthy after a very trying year.

              Indulge me a little.
              Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.

              ...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915

              Comment


              • Originally posted by molly bloom View Post
                Chance and luck was with Fleming, and wartime planning resulted in the development of penicillin, since a wide spectrum drug such as it was urgently required in WWII.

                Sounds less 'magical' than God directing them from behind the curtain, but it is in fact the prosaic truth.
                If you believe that miracles and God's work has to be done with burning bushes and lightening bolts, perhaps...

                No, you witnessed something for which you don't have an explanation.

                There's a difference.

                Only if you can rule out all possible instances of an organic, physical, and above all, natural cause, can you say you witnessed something for which there is no possible rational physical explanation.

                In the 19th Century, many of today's technological achievements would have seemed little short of miraculous (as would broad spectrum antibiotics, heart and lung transplants, brain shunts, et cetera.
                There are many things that doctors have no explination. For those things as well as the technological achievements that have cured things heretofor uncurable, I assign a divine wind helping along and working His miracles in everyday activities. My God is not a deistic God, who created everything and left, but works His ways through his Holy Spirit, which works its way through the world. Though I am no Calvinist, and as such, believe the Spirit can be denied, and has constantly been, within as well as outside of the Church.
                “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by MikeH View Post
                  I actually find the idea that some supernatural being was behind humanities achievements quite offensive.
                  He gives you permission to be offended .
                  “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                  - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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                  • So God created flesh-eating bacteria, and then several million years later created anti-biotics because...?
                    Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
                    "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

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                    • God created the world, through the process of evolution. Bad things evolved, but God's plan is to eventually reconcile the world to Himself. He gently tries to push us to that realm and His hand is in our trumphs and His comforting arm is around us in our losses. I don't think He "created" anti-biotics, but guided those who did and helped them along the way.

                      If it helps you, think of Him as a mentor and encourageour.
                      “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                      - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                      Comment


                      • There will always be a significant disconnect between those who believe death is the end and those who believe death is a transition. It's a matter of perspective. Since God by definition knows that death is a transition, he will never be understood by those who regard it as the end.
                        No, I did not steal that from somebody on Something Awful.

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                        • Death is hardly the end. It just marks the boundary between one process (homeostasis) and another (decomposition).
                          Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
                          "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

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                          • Originally posted by The Mad Monk View Post
                            There will always be a significant disconnect between those who believe death is the end and those who believe death is a transition. It's a matter of perspective. Since God by definition knows that death is a transition, he will never be understood by those who regard it as the end.
                            That is well said. Though I do look forward to continuing this conversation in the New Jerusalem with molly, MikeH, and Lori (yes, I am a universalist - I guess the caveat is a belief in purgatory) .
                            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by molly bloom View Post
                              That said, I actually enjoyed reading 'Paradise Lost', but then the Devil is the most likeable character in it.
                              I don't know that I'd call him likeable. The most interesting, certainly; I read Paradise Lost with interest until it got to the point where it was God lecturing people about His Providence, then got bored and tossed it aside. So, of course, my opinion isn't worth much. Even so, Satan in PL has much the same appeal as Marlowe's Tamburlaine. You read them and nod along at the thundering speeches, all the "from th'empyrean's starry height to the such-and-such of deepest hell beneath, yadda yadda yadda," and you listen to him swearing vengeance and eternal vendetta like Ricardo Montalban as Khan--and, of course, it's appealing on a visceral level, because it cries out to the part of us that wants to be brave and forceful and totally self-sufficient.

                              But then you put down the book and think about what he said, and you realize Tamburlaine's a monster who wants to kill millions just to prove he can, while Satan's motivation begins and ends with spite. God smacked him around, so he's going to go piss in the divine oatmeal just to get back at Him. I mean, that's what I got out of it, maybe something else materializes later, correct me if I'm wrong, and all that. But when all the speeches are said, and when he's done swooping around, Satan's merely ornery. Maybe that still makes him more likeable than PL's God, though.

                              And of course, Tamburlaine and Satan are both fun characters to read, despite their both being morally repugnant SOBs. I assume you're looking forward to the upcoming Paradise Lost movie? The makers are planning to shift the focus away from all the boring talky and theological bits and onto more exciting aerial battles between angels!
                              1011 1100
                              Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Elok View Post
                                it's appealing on a visceral level, because it cries out to the part of us that wants to be brave and forceful and totally self-sufficient.

                                But then you put down the book and think about what he said, and you realize Tamburlaine's a monster who wants to kill millions just to prove he can, while Satan's motivation begins and ends with spite.
                                Kind of sounds like the best lesson to take away from the "fall"
                                “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                                - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                                Comment

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