Rapture Question

[Thoth]

"The Rapture" is what happens when you embrace Nuit.

"Take wine and strange drugs and be drunk thereof that thou shalt know me"


IO PAN! IO PAN!

IO PAN PAN!

[molly bloom]

I should mention that, while I read Revelation as a teenager for all the cool bits about giant agony-locusts, the OC has a somewhat uncomfortable relationship with the book--it's the ONLY book in the Bible we don't read from in any way during services. The general fear is that unguided exposure to the book would lead people to come up with all sorts of wackadoo theories. Anyway, I'm not terribly well-versed in Revelation, just letting you know.

Unfortunately as many rulers in Reformation Europe found, authorized translations of the Bible into the vernacular allowed the common folk to read it and interpret it for themselves- which they did with violent consequence.

As the Bible is full of parable and metaphor this is hardly surprising. As I pointed out, anyone taking a literalist view of it even in the 17th Century, would have been regarded as a little strange.

You have only to look at the similar situations in war torn 17th Century Europe and the 20th Century experience of bloodshed to see social parallels. The Thirty Years' War, The Eighty Years' War between Spain and the United Provinces, The Great Northern War, the Great Plague in England, the English Civil Wars, even the Ottoman Empire had a Jewish apocalypticist:

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/asym/zevi.html

he forms part of the background to an enjoyable novel by Amin Maalouf, 'Balthasar's Odyssey':

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Balthasars-Odyssey-Amin-Maalouf/dp/0099452081

The millenial North American groups of course faced economic and actual extinction, from climate, lack of food, other Christians and the restless natives. Hardly surprising they thought they were special. Unfortunately the attitude seems to have lived on, with no more grounding in sober reality than before.

[Kidlicious]

At the Methodist church it was the same way with regard to the book of Revelations. I don't even know if they believe in the rapture.

Anyway, it's about a vision (or dream) that John had. The only other thing really like it is Ezekiel's vision. It's much more complicated though. There isn't much explaination for what hey saw. He just says I saw this then I saw that etc. He seems to talk about things out of order. He stops talking something then he comes back to it with out telling the reader. There's a lot of symbolism and you don't know what to take literally.

That all said, those who do look to it for information on the end times believe in the rapture. I say that because some don't believe it means anything to future generations, and some of them don't think it should be in the Bible.

In his vision the Lord tells him to tell the seven churches something. Only one church is told that they will be spared this horrible thing that is going to happen. In context it's obvious He's refering to the Tribulation, where people will have to get the mark of the Beast or be killed and other stuff. Now given the nature of the book I can see how people just don't know. I just don't know about a lot in there either.

[Kidlicious]

One more thing, some people believe that they and all those with similar beliefs will be taken in the rapture. The scripture makes it clear that only some will be taken. If it happens today most christians will be left behind. There's a person who calls himself a christian and then there's a description of a christian in the NT. The two are rarely the same.

[Ben Kenobi]

Sure thing. Do we have any Rapture believers here--Kid, maybe? I always thought the doctrine was based mostly on one passage in an epistle of Peter's, but trying to follow the different opinions in Wiki's article on the matter is causing my brain to explode.

I'm not the best person to ask about the Rapture. Even when I was an Evangelical, my church didn't support it.

[Ben Kenobi]

everybody's going to be staying here until Christ comes in glory.

Hmm? Only those who happen to be alive at the time. The Saints are in heaven. Pretty sure Orthodox eschatology is the same as Catholic eschatology.

[Elok]

How many angels can dance on the end of a hair which you're currently splitting, BK?

[Kidlicious]

All the saints are in Heaven?

"All the inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast ... If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword hey will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints."
Rev 13

[Elok]

By "saints," I assume BK refers to saints in the current RC/OC sense, dead men and women of extraordinary piety who are held up as examples of sanctity for the faithful. When I said "everybody's going to be staying here," I meant all the living, and I thought that was obvious in context.

[Elok]

How the heck do some denominations argue for teetotalism when Paul explicitly orders Timothy to drink wine, anyway?

[Jon Miller]

Some say that is medicinal only, others say he meant what we call now grape juice.

I don't agree with them.

Although I understand the point that alcohol causes many problems and in some situations it is better to abstain (and encourage others to abstain).

JM

[Kidlicious]

How the heck do some denominations argue for teetotalism when Paul explicitly orders Timothy to drink wine, anyway?

I don't drink socially. This is the only socially acceptable way but it's not a good way to encourage people. We have a recovery program at my church (baptist). Drinking alcohol is considered a sin.

[Jon Miller]

It is reasonable to argue that meant medicinal.

The comments about Jesus drinking (versus John not) and communion wine are more difficult to explain with the interpretation that all alcohol drinking is a sin. Also, Jesus and the wine for the wedding feast.

JM
(Once more, I understand and encourage those who think that drinking alcohol is a temptation that they don't want to have.)

[Elok]

Oh, I have no problem with Christians making the personal choice not to drink. More booze for me.

[Ben Kenobi]

How many angels can dance on the end of a hair which you're currently splitting, BK?

Considering it's my job to teach Catholic theology...