100k Iraqi victims thread

[DaShi]

Agreed if anything the London riots have taught us is that we need our military here at home to beat senseless the newly minted college twits.

Exactly, they have nothing else to do.

[Dr Strangelove]

Oh, and the An Anfal campaign in northern Iraq was conducted from 1987 to 1988. It had been over for nearly 15 years when the "Coalition of the Willing" set foot in Iraq. Iraq had been under intense scrutiny for the 12 years after the first Gulf War, Saddam Hussein's brutal side had been sharply curtailed by the continued real threat of western air intervention, so it doesn't seem like the second war really prevented further genocide. No the US and it's coalition invaded Iraq not to liberate the Shia and Kurds, but because we were certain that Saddam Hussein was in cahoots with al-Qaeda and was days away from giving over his secret stock of WMDs. We accepted this lie because the people behind it kept saying "9/11, 9/11, 9/11" over and over.
Long comes "Arab Spring", and it seems to me if we hadn't swallowed the lies and had left Hussein alone he'd be on the ropes just like Mubarak and Ghaddafi now. Fewer Iraqis would have died, no American soldiers would have died, and we would not have the shame of remembering that we had allowed someone to take our grief and anger and manipulate us into going to war over a lie. The invasion of Iraq stirred an enormous amount of resentment in the middle east, resentment towards the west and its modern ways. Now that the furor has abated peoples of the middle east are beginning to reach for those modern ways, though selectively. In all probability the Second Gulf War set back Arab political decade by several years.

[Ben Kenobi]

There have been 9 anniversaries of 9/11. 9/11 was the primary justification for the attack on Iraq and since the Iraqis were not involved in 9/11 nor possessed the much feared WMDs to attack America or her allies it is proper and fitting that on the anniversary of 9/11 we remember how our grief was misused to entrap us in this crime. If we don't we may be doomed to repeat the error. You wouldn't want that would you Ben?

I don't see how commemorating the civilians who died on 9-11 has anything to do with this. Do you feel the same about Armistice day?

[Ben Kenobi]

so it doesn't seem like the second war really prevented further genocide.

The Kurds would beg to differ.

[Dr Strangelove]

I don't see how commemorating the civilians who died on 9-11 has anything to do with this. Do you feel the same about Armistice day?

Armistice Day? You're stiil Canadian aren't you? I can't recall the last time an unscrupulous politician used the memory of the deaths of WW1 American soldiers to further his vendetta against another country or its leaders.

OTOH out of the past 9 anniversaries of 9/11 during at least 5 of them we've been told that we needed to continue our war against a nation innocent of involvement in 9/11. There's some reason to beleive that members of the same political faction that misused the memory of 9/11 may soon come back to power here. That's more than enough reason to remind people no to let themselves be led astray again.

[Ben Kenobi]

Armistice Day? You're stiil Canadian aren't you?

The Canada I love has been dead for 50 years now.

I can't recall the last time an unscrupulous politician used the memory of the deaths of WW1 American soldiers to further his vendetta against another country or its leaders.

I can't tell the difference between the two ceremonies. One honours dead civilians in this war, while the other handles the casulties of the first world war.

That's more than enough reason to remind people no to let themselves be led astray again.

I don't see any factionalism. Certainly not here and I don't se ewhy TX would be different.

[Dr Strangelove]

The Canada I love has been dead for 50 years now.

Yeah, but you're notr exactly naturalized here yet. M'kay I'm going to go easy on you and just let you know that down here we call it Veterans Day. We also have a Memorial Day in Spring. Both serve the same general purpose. Memorial Day is actually older, it was originally meant to honor the Civil War dead, but has evolved to honor all of the military fallen in all of our wars. Veterans Day likewise originally honored the dead of WW 1, but has come to apply to all of our veteran military servicemen. The difference is that Memorial Day is the elder of the two and has more importance. A large portion of the country gets Memorial Day as a holiday, few take Veterans Day off. Another way to look at it is that Veterans Day to some honors the survivors while Memorial Day honors the fallen.

I can't tell the difference between the two ceremonies. One honours dead civilians in this war, while the other handles the casulties of the first world war.

As I said above, in the US Veterans (Armistice) Day in the US long ceased to be about WW1. the commemeration of 9/11 is obviously focised on a single, exclusively civilian event. You lived in Canada until about one year ago, so maybe you weren't exposed to the way that the Bush administration exploited the memories of the event to justify the invasion of a country utterly uninvolved in the attack.

I don't see any factionalism. Certainly not here and I don't se why TX would be different.

ah, well since I know that Texas has Republicans then I assume that you choose to ignore the obvoius.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yeah, but you're notr exactly naturalized here yet. M'kay I'm going to go easy on you and just let you know that down here we call it Veterans Day.

Mere politics. The 11th of November is Armistice Day. I don't really care about the politics of naming things in the present. I care about what the day stands for, the Armistice. Hence Armistice Day. I teach it as such too.

We also have a Memorial Day in Spring.

My very first visit to America celebrated Memorial Day, and I remember it fondly. Memorial Day makes sense to me as the American holiday, because it commemorates the dead in the civil war and is a much older day. This is why I don't use the term 'veteran's day', because Armistice Day isn't really an American holiday. It's an anglosphere holiday.

Mostly because of how much more significant it is for Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the UK, where they fought for the entirety of the war.

I don't see why I shouldn't be able to elevate the significance of a day with more personal meaning to me, as "Armistice Day", while at the same time, acknowledging that Memorial Day is the more important one.

Another way to look at it is that Veterans Day to some honors the survivors while Memorial Day honors the fallen.

Makes no sense to me, because Armistice day honours the fallen, too.

I can't tell the difference between the two ceremonies.

Really? They are very different. The traditions are very different around both days. If you were ever around for one in Canada, you would see what I mean, and why I prefer to use the term Armistice Day, because it is not celebrated in America to the same extent as elsewhere.

in the US Veterans (Armistice) Day in the US long ceased to be about WW1. the commemeration of 9/11 is obviously focised on a single, exclusively civilian event. You lived in Canada until about one year ago, so maybe you weren't exposed to the way that the Bush administration exploited the memories of the event to justify the invasion of a country utterly uninvolved in the attack.

On the contrary. I was sheltered by the effects of the war up in Canada, and it wasn't until I got the chance to come down to America 6 years ago, did I really start to understand what was going on. I had a chance to talk to some of the servicemen.

So please, get off yourself. There are many brave men and women who disagree with your interpretation. I suspect your 'concept' of American culture is far different from that of TX. Which is a good thing because TX is awesome.

Where are you Doc?

[MrFun]

I'd like to know what lie I made in this thread.

[Dr Strangelove]

I can't tell the difference between the two ceremonies.

Do you realise that this is a quote from your post? You're now arguing with yourself.

I currently live in Virginia, I thought that was common knowledge on 'Poly. I've lived in New York, New Hampshire, Tennessee, North Carolina and Maryland.

American servicemen didn't commit this country to an attack on Iraq, its elected officials did that. Those elected did this with the approval of the general public at least for the first 3 or 4 years of the war because the general public accepted their lies that Iraq was involved with the organization that carried out the 9/11 attack and that Iraq had stashes of WMDs which it might have been geady to lend to that organization. The opinions of American servicemen has nothing to do with why the US went to war with Iraq in 2003. Did those soldiers write their own orders to go to Iraq? The United States is still governed by civilians whether you like it or not. Who knows, maybe Texas will secede like its governor has threatened. Guess where that will leave you Ben? Not in the United States of America anymore!

[Elok]

[MikeH]

[Ben Kenobi]

American servicemen didn't commit this country to an attack on Iraq, its elected officials did that. Those elected did this with the approval of the general public at least for the first 3 or 4 years of the war because the general public accepted their lies that Iraq was involved with the organization that carried out the 9/11 attack and that Iraq had stashes of WMDs which it might have been geady to lend to that organization.

One, it wasn't a lie. Two, the stashes were found, just not in Iraq. Three, the 'public support of the war' is not as you claimed it to be. Four, we found mass Kurdish graves in Iraq that weren't known previously. Five, the war got Q-Daffi to give up his stockpiles of WMD.

The opinions of American servicemen has nothing to do with why the US went to war with Iraq in 2003.

That enlistment has been sustained through the entire volunteer process suggests that there are a great many Americans who believe that they should have fought in Iraq, enough so to risk their lives.

Did those soldiers write their own orders to go to Iraq?

Were they drafted to go? No.

The United States is still governed by civilians whether you like it or not. Who knows, maybe Texas will secede like its governor has threatened. Guess where that will leave you Ben? Not in the United States of America anymore!

No, I'd live in the sovereign republic of Texas.