Gay Sex Political Scandal- Guess Which Party?

[Ben Kenobi]

As usual, Christians have created a society which goes completely against their core beliefs practicing constant double-think because even they realize, deep down, the absurdity of Christian dogma.

No, that is simply because man is sinful and depraved and Christ acts contrary to our base impulses.

In Islam, man is not born a sinner. Man is born pure and Muslim, as a creation of God. It is the actions of the man which determine if he is a sinner or not, a Muslim or not, or have paradise or not.

If a man is truly pure, how could he have impure thoughts? How could he sin at all?

[Ben Kenobi]

Completely different conception of what man is between Islam and Christianity. How can God's creation be borne wicked, even before a single thought or action?

That is a good question. Christianity states that Man was created wholly without sin, but was given Free Will, for which he could choose good or ill. Adam sinned, and chose the ill over the good, and for that we bear the stain of his sin through the whole of the race.

Islam negates free will entirely. Men cannot choose their faith, they are born into it. Men cannot choose to sin, they are instead wholly pure. They are corrupted, as Rousseau argues, but outside influences and society.

If only we had the true utopia, then men themselves would be perfectly at peace. But Rousseau was wrong about this.

Read my post. I have always maintained, though I am an atheist, that if an Abrahamic religion must be followed by someone, it should be Islam. Islam is the only one that is consistent and makes sense.

Islam like Rousseau believes that men were born wholly good and society has corrupted man. This is flawed, because we know that the evil does not lie in society but in men themselves.

I think we, in a Western society, forget that the Christian viewpoint is not some eternal religious view. For the sake of pluralism, you often see Christians claim that all religions are different ways of saying the same thing (and yes, this is exactly wrong, judging from the message of Jesus presented in the Gospels), but it's not the same thing.

It's not a Christian viewpoint, but a Western secular humanist viewpoint. The two are not the same and conflating the two is dishonest. Religions are not all the same, and religions are not all good. Christ is very clear that there is only one way, one path to eternal salvation and that is through Christ himself.

Religions are very different. And our Western conception of what religion is is entirely colored by Christian dogma.

Christianity is not a western religion. Rousseau, on the other hand is. It is odd that Islam would share the problems of the western view of the world that man is incorruptible at birth and corrupted by the ills of society.

[Kidlicious]

Islam makes sense? Human nature is good? Well anyone who believes that can be a muslim. You should check the research though. Man is quite wicked indeed.

[Al B. Sure!]

Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another.

-al Isra 15


I don't want a religious debate because it should be obvious to an impartial person how terrible a faith is that teaches that man is wicked because of a never-forgiven sin of an ancestor... "Sins of the fathers" bull****. Islam only holds man accountable for his own actions.

Why does man sin? Man is not perfect. Man is naturally good but he is not perfect. God, since he knows all, intended for man to not be perfect and to sin.

And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

- al Baqarah 30


Certain things about Christianity make no sense. Take a look:

5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

-Genesis 6:5-7

I'm puzzled. God repented? God regretted creating man? What happened to all-powerful, all-knowing God?

[Ben Kenobi]

I don't want a religious debate because it should be obvious to an impartial person how terrible a faith is that teaches that man is wicked because of a never-forgiven sin of an ancestor... "Sins of the fathers" bull****. Islam only holds man accountable for his own actions.

Except it doesn't. If man is wholly pure and corrupted by society, then it's the evil thing outside of him that caused the sin, not the man himself.

We inherit from Adam a sinful nature with the desire for sin. Whether we choose to sin is whether we choose to give into the desire for sin.

Why does man sin? Man is not perfect. Man is naturally good but he is not perfect. God, since he knows all, intended for man to not be perfect and to sin.

If he has a good nature, then it is the outside forces that make him evil. But society cannot be perfected. Evil lies in man, not society.

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Repent means to 'turn aside'. Yes, God has feelings. He can feel joy and love and anger, and in this example, regret.

I'm puzzled. God repented? God regretted creating man? What happened to all-powerful, all-knowing God?

Can Allah love?

[Al B. Sure!]

Islam negates free will entirely. Men cannot choose their faith, they are born into it. Men cannot choose to sin, they are instead wholly pure.

How do you say that man cannot chose their faith? Man chooses their faith all the time. What did you do? How can man not choose to sin? Man chooses to sin all the time.

God knows in advance when a man will sin (obviously, since he is God), but that does not mean that a man does not have active choice in 'acquiring' the sin that God knew he will commit (note, there is as much debate in Islam over free will vs. predestination as there is in Christianity). However, unlike in Christianity, in Islam, you are only held accountable for what you personally do! Not the actions of Adam!

[Ben Kenobi]

How do you say that man cannot chose their faith?

You just quoted Islam where the Koran says that all men are born Muslim. They are converted away to another religion, but they remain muslim because that's what they were originally.

Man chooses their faith all the time. What did you do? How can man not choose to sin? Man chooses to sin all the time.

I'm not the best example to follow...

Technically, I'm a baptised Anglican, who has been received and confirmed in the Catholic church, with a profession of faith in a mennonite brethren Church. I have not at present been married, but I have received the sacrament of confession, and first communion.

God knows in advance when a man will sin (obviously, since he is God), but that does not mean that a man does not have active choice in 'acquiring' the sin that God knew he will commit (note, there is as much debate in Islam over free will vs. predestination as there is in Christianity). However, unlike in Christianity, in Islam, you are only held accountable for what you personally do! Not the actions of Adam!

Again, there's a difference between a predeliction or an urge to sin, from the actual sin itself. We inherit a sinful nature from Adam, but it is our choice to succumb to the sinful nature. This is a really important point to understand about Christianity. Catholicism calls it concuspisence.

[Kidlicious]

Albie, you're an atheist which is wickedness. A religion is good if it saves men from their wickedness. What good is a religion that is a lie. It can't save because it is invented by wicked men who lie.

[Al B. Sure!]

Ben, why is your God powerless to forgive? Why is he a merciless God?

Think about it. He makes all mankind sinners for the sin of a single man. He visits the sins of the fathers upon the children. He can not forgive them except by a charade by which his, mind you, sinless son, Jesus, is punished and killed for the wrongs done by others. Over and over again, you see it stressed that man is wicked, all are held accountable for the sins of others, and that even Jesus must suffer for the wrongs done by others and only through Jesus' suffering is God somehow granted the ability to forgive that he apparently never possessed previously? Huh?

It's a bizarre mythology.

Yes, God has feelings. He can feel joy and love and anger, and in this example, regret.
Can Allah love?

I don't know. I don't think you're supposed to know. It seems wrong to ascribe human attributes to God (a form of shirk), however, I can understand that certain things about God were framed in human terms for human understanding. Also, since God is all-powerful, God can do or feel whatever he wants. Who knows?

It's you Christians, though, that personify God and turn him into Jesus or an old white man with a white beard living on a throne in the clouds.

[Al B. Sure!]

Albie, you're an atheist which is wickedness. A religion is good if it saves men from their wickedness. What good is a religion that is a lie. It can't save because it is invented by wicked men who lie.

Everything you know about Christianity is a lie. There. I said so.

Why is my word any more hollow than yours or what your preacher man tells you?

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben, why is your God powerless to forgive? Why is he a merciless God?

He is just. If all choose evil and choose to be wicked, there is no repentence in man to forgive. You must first repent!

Think about it. He makes all mankind sinners for the sin of a single man.

He did no such thing. He made man free from sin, but man chose to sin against God. Adam chose to disobey his command, and the consequence was the curse that God placed upon the race of man. Had adam obeyed, we would still be in the garden today.

He visits the sins of the fathers upon the children.

In our sinful, and wicked nature, yes. But he gives us a deal. If we manage to repent of our sinful and wicked nature, and we hold fast to Him, them we shall be rewarded with eternal life in heaven.

He can not forgive them except by a charade by which his, mind you, sinless son, Jesus, is punished and killed for the wrongs done by others.

Jesus chose to redeem man through his sacrifice for our sins. He chose to become man and to bear our sins on the cross. He chose. God chose to die for us, would Allah do that for you? God was willing to give his one and only son for sinful man, so that all those who believe in him might be redeemed.

Jesus must suffer for the wrongs done by others

Must, nothing. Jesus chose to suffer and die for us. Why? Because he was the perfect substitutionary sacrifice. He was Man, but he did not sin. Because of his sacrifice on the cross, all of man's sin was redeemed on the cross once and for all. Prior to this there was no way we could pay the blood debt. Only imperfect sacrifices.

I don't know.

There's the difference. I know that God loves me.

It's you Christians, though, that personify God and turn him into Jesus or an old white man with a white beard living on a throne in the clouds.

No. What you fail to see is that we see God in many different ways. But we see him as Jesus because he chose to suffer like us and to die on the cross. For nothing more than his love for us and his creation.

He loves us albert, and in the end that's the real difference. We KNOW he loves us and what's more. He loves you. Always has.

[Kidlicious]

Everything you know about Christianity is a lie. There. I said so.

Why is my word any more hollow than yours or what your preacher man tells you?

Don't you see that man lies and says that he is good. Oh yeah you are atheist.
Why don't you check the research that psychologists are doing with regards to human nature. Man is a liar. Anyone who says otherwise lies. Islam is a lie. Atheists are liars.

[Tuberski]

Ben, why is your God powerless to forgive? Why is he a merciless God?

Think about it. He makes all mankind sinners for the sin of a single man. He visits the sins of the fathers upon the children. He can not forgive them except by a charade by which his, mind you, sinless son, Jesus, is punished and killed for the wrongs done by others. Over and over again, you see it stressed that man is wicked, all are held accountable for the sins of others, and that even Jesus must suffer for the wrongs done by others and only through Jesus' suffering is God somehow granted the ability to forgive that he apparently never possessed previously? Huh?

Mormons are the best Christians then, they don't believe they are punished because of Adam's sin, but only for their own.

ACK!

[Al B. Sure!]

Jesus chose to redeem man through his sacrifice for our sins. He chose to become man and to bear our sins on the cross. He chose. God chose to die for us, would Allah do that for you? God was willing to give his one and only son for sinful man, so that all those who believe in him might be redeemed.

Some God. He requires a sacrifice to learn the capacity to forgive. Real all-powerful being that Christian God.

[Ben Kenobi]

Some God. He requires a sacrifice to learn the capacity to forgive.

He's always required sacrifices. Sin costs you Albert. It's not free. There's a debt that must be paid from sin. If you were to break a contract there are consequences, and the same is true with sin and God.