Leaving Afghanistan

[Hauldren Collider]

The Indian Wars were a series of isolated skirmishes with barely-affiliated or nonaffiliated native tribes over the course of a century. Considering them to be part of one long war is really kind of stretching the term.

[Arrian]

Everyone save Cockney (post 63 Long drawn out civil war = stalemate) , Arrian (post 176), Cort Haus (numerous) and myself (post 71) that is.

Mobius first mention of stalemate post 178 (March 30)

Revisionism/Prescience/Intellectual dishonesty is a wonderful thing.

Dang - too long on the research x-post with COckney

Yeah, it's not like this was ancient history.

Mobius, I seriously can't figure out if you're just trolling, or if you really believe your own bull**** on Libya

-Arrian

[MrFun]

I know of the country Libya, but I've never heard of this country you call Libyia.

[Cort Haus]

Libyia is in the universe next door. Probably the universe in which Moby is right, and in which Dubyia is currently the president of the US.

[Al B. Sure!]

I saw that, too - I also had to think about their inclusion of the entire Cold "War."

There's still a lot of truth in that image's listing of wars. There's no denying that there were a multitude of conflicts between Native Americans and whites during those centuries.

I suppose, if the creator of that graphic wanted, he could have quadrupled the length of that list by listing each individual Native American conflict with whites.

But now do the same list for England from 1066 on...

[Pax]

O Canada, what a beautiful country.
One of the burdens of being a friend and an ally is that you stand by your friends in a fight. Sometimes you and your friend may get your ass kicked but ain't it good when you know someone has your back. You know like the lend lease program. Yeah buddy, you can borrow my tanks. In fact, I'm making some extra planes, come over and I'll give you some. Don't get me wrong, I love Canada. I think that Canada and other countries should recognize that the U.S. is and has been a good friend and ally to have.

Point being, if we leave Afghanistan without them having a stable government then that will be irresponsible and leaves the U.S. and other countries at risk of being targets. And yes, the U.S. is the biggest target, but it's not the only target.

[Cort Haus]

Targets? From whom? A bunch of western-educated Saudi-Arabians?

Fighting a war for *ever* in Afghanistan isn't going to stop western radicals from doing crazy things. Please don't equate it with WW2 and lend lease. Facing existential destruction from a superpower on the rampage does not equate with a tiny threat from a bunch of nutters.

What's the best you can hope for in Afghanistan? A stable and friendly government like, for example, Pakistan?

Oh.

[Pax]

Actually, the best we can hope for is a stable government like the U.K., Japan or any other stable country. There are human beings in Afghanistan and they have unlimited potential for war and for peace. Also, I don't want to be the forever. I am going to assume that you are from a European country, for you Nazi Germany may have felt like "Facing existential destruction from a superpower on the rampage", but on the other side of the atlantic it did not feel that way until Pearl Harbor.

[C0ckney]

the best we can hope for is a stable government like the U.K., Japan or any other stable country.

when cort said hope, he didn't some mean ridiculous fantasy which will never happen in a million years, he meant what is the best realistic outcome for afghanistan. actually, i would put the idea that afghanistan could become as stable and as well governed as pakistan under fantasy as well. the country is a complete mess, we are not doing anyone any good there, in fact our presence is probably making things worse. it's been 10 years, it's time to leave.

[Pax]

Historically, European based countries(americas, europe) have been unstable. The order and stability that we enjoy today was not even there in the 60's. The good ol' days are now. We are living in the most orderly era that western civilization has ever experienced. An even then, we have riots over Ice hockey games. Look back, at the history of ALMOST any country and you will see things are probably better than they were in 1960, 1917, 1862 or any date. If you would have told someone in 1862 that there would eventually be a black president, women would have the right to vote, that air conditioning would be in almost every home or that almost every kid in the u.s. would have the opportunity for an education(instead of working a farm/factory) that person would have called it fantasy. Look at your countries own history whatever it may be and you will probably find things are better now than they where before. There are exceptions, but those are obstacles also that can be overcome.

[C0ckney]

i'm sorry, but what the hell does that have to do with a) my post b) afghanistan?

[Pax]

Just because something has not happened does not make fantasy.

[C0ckney]

no it's fantasy because no reasonable examination of the facts could lead to the scenario you described being considered probable, or even possible.

[C0ckney]

i mean it's like saying that i want to bang gisele bündchen. i don't know her, have never met her, the chances of us ever meeting are vanishingly small, and even if that were somehow to come to pass, the chances of said banging occurring are pretty damn slim. so while i might imagine a set of incredibly unlikely circumstances occurring and therefore it happening, any realistic examination will tell me that it won't. it's a fantasy.

[Al B. Sure!]

Yeah those Afghans are savages who are incapable of having peace!