So why exactly is Israeli slaughtering protesters?

[C0ckney]

How is that a load of crap?

i agree with the first past of his post, but not the bit i quoted, for several reasons. the history is wrong. i mean who would argue that the europe is more racist today than in 1900, at the height of its power? the USA has become less racist over time, yet has been a superpower for 60/70 years, and the only superpower since 1990. the reasons are not to do with relative or absolute power, but social changes. many would argue that muslims (arabs) are more prejudiced against the jews today than say 100 years ago. where were the arabs then? the ottoman empire was moribund and about to crumble, north africa was under the boot of european colonialism, and much of the middle east about to experience the same fate. more powerful than today, where they rule themselves? i think not. what az wrote just isn't true.

so then we come to what az is really saying, which is that you can explain the arab and palestinian attitudes towards the jewish people using his theory. lets be real here, the palestinians do not like the jews because of events, things that have happened, things that the jews/israelis did and are doing. when a group/country steals your land, kicks you out of your home, continues to steal more land on an almost daily basis, causes you to suffer economic hardship, causes you to suffer many other indignities and humiliations and sometimes kills your countrymen, you're not going to have warm fuzzy feelings towards them.

now if you want to then say that other arab countries use the israeli/palestinian situation in their own countries as propaganda to distract for example from their own domestic problems, then i would agree with you.

[C0ckney]

US perhaps not ... but in Europe the xenophobia and Jew killing during the middle ages is very much related to the "bad events" or decline... like the black plague, etc... people are looking for a scapegoat and Jews and other foreigners like gypsies, non majority religion, etc... easily get on the agenda...

onefoot, that's the natural tendency of humans to blame 'outsiders' for bad things and catastrophes that occur. this was obviously more prevalent in less advanced societies. i don't think anyone would argue with that, but that's certainly not what az was talking about.

[Zoetstofzoetje]

What is a fact is that very often in foreign countries Jewish communities are very closed. This creates an "us angainst them mentality" that if left unchecked results in pogroms or worse.

This. Integration is a two-way street. Actually, mostly one-way (the newcomers). When the newcomers refuse for whatever reason, p00p hits the fan eventually.

[Zevico]

What is a fact is that very often in foreign countries Jewish communities are very closed. This creates an "us angainst them mentality" that if left unchecked results in pogroms or worse.

Ah, of course. How could I forget? Jews keep to themselves. They stick to their own. Help out their own kind. It's us against them, right? This is utter drivel; a generalisation based on nothing but your own prejudices, that applies 'very often' (how often?) in 'foreign countries' (which foreign countries?).

Let's take Germany as an example and test this hypothesis by reference to the facts.

The Jewish population of Germany before Hitler's rise to power was basically being assimilated. Intermarriage was at an all-time high. Keeping to themselves? Rubbish.

Or the Soviet Union: 10% of Communists pre-revolution were Jews. Ergo, Stalin's doctor's plot was because Jews weren't being integrated. Those damned Jews--they were all "closed off."

Or the United States: countless judges, journalists, authors, writers, intellectuals. (They all keep to themselves.)

Or the United Kingdom: Disraeli, Balfour, Rothschild.

In Western countries, the process of the Enlightenment and humanist ideals basically created the phenomenon of widespread assimilation into the host country in which jews were located (outside of convert or die scenarios).

In Germany, in fact, the basic reason to grant jews rights was so that jews would convert to christianity. Poof--end of the jewish problem. Hitler's rise came about basically because this justification (i) didn't seem convincing after more than a century of emancipation (ii) accordingly, a racial rather than religious definition of Jews was adopted.

In other words, if the jews don't convert, it's not because they're being kept down by repression: it's because they're jews. They keep to themselves.

The consequence is that basically most people in your great-grandparents' generation decided that killing them all was the only way to "purify" Germany of those evil people who supposedly "kept to themselves."

The real problem is people who think about people as problems rather than people, because it is more convenient to blame their faults on others. That many Poles and Ukrainians still think in this way is merely indicative of their backwards ass thinking but it is unsurprising. After the war my grandmother went to Belorussia to study and had to stay with a belorussian family. They proudly showed them sites of mass graves. There the jews really did keep to themselves.

[C0ckney]

Let's take your country as an example and test this hypothesis by reference to the facts.

what does your post have to do with belgium?

[Zoetstofzoetje]

In my world (finance), the jews help each other as much as they try to screw each other over. It's a mixed bag based on circumstance and opportunity.

[Zevico]

what does your post have to do with belgium?

My mistake. The flag looked like the German one. Text edited accordingly.

[dannubis]

Ah, of course. How could I forget? Jews keep to themselves. They stick to their own. Help out their own kind. It's us against them, right? This is utter drivel; a generalisation based on nothing but your own prejudices, that applies 'very often' (how often?) in 'foreign countries' (which foreign countries?).

Bla bla bla

Don't read justification in my words. I am just saying how Jewish communities generally are perceived in most societies. This is a reality that has affected these comunities for the last 2000 years. The fact that they have another religion doesn't help either.

Regarding the sneer later in your post:
1. My family lost quite a few members of "my great-grandparents' generation" fighting the German occupation
2. My family wasn't German so wasn't involved in any way in the holocaust
3. How many aboriginal heads have been collected by your criminal ancestors, you Aussie wanker ?

[Zevico]

I already corrected the text before you posted this. Evidently I did not do so with sufficient care.

My apologies.

[Az]

i agree with the first past of his post, but not the bit i quoted, for several reasons. the history is wrong. i mean who would argue that the europe is more racist today than in 1900, at the height of its power? the USA has become less racist over time, yet has been a superpower for 60/70 years, and the only superpower since 1990. the reasons are not to do with relative or absolute power, but social changes. many would argue that muslims (arabs) are more prejudiced against the jews today than say 100 years ago. where were the arabs then? the ottoman empire was moribund and about to crumble, north africa was under the boot of european colonialism, and much of the middle east about to experience the same fate. more powerful than today, where they rule themselves? i think not. what az wrote just isn't true.

I dare to say that if you control for general societal progress ( women weren't able to vote in 1900 for god's sake), Europe and the US have certainly become more racist since then. I was also specifically referring to Germany, which was a European powerhouse pre-WWI, and was reduced to a joke afterwards. As I said, butthurt.

While the Ottoman empire was about to crumble it still was considered a respected global power, an ally equal in importance to Austro-Hungaria in the alliance, and had imperial interests over christian lands. There is no similar location today. Self ruling by puppeted governments at the whim of Soviets, Americans and the french is no independence.

Speaking of independence, the drive to independence in the arab world, and Turkey's secularization was actually a marker of not reminiscing of the past but a forward-thinking approach. After the revolutions and wars for independence, the sense of entitlement rapidly returned, together with the thought that hey - we have removed the european yoke = Golden age of islam a thousand years ago.

so then we come to what az is really saying, which is that you can explain the arab and palestinian attitudes towards the jewish people using his theory. lets be real here, the palestinians do not like the jews because of events, things that have happened, things that the jews/israelis did and are doing. when a group/country steals your land, kicks you out of your home, continues to steal more land on an almost daily basis, causes you to suffer economic hardship, causes you to suffer many other indignities and humiliations and sometimes kills your countrymen, you're not going to have warm fuzzy feelings towards them.

I beg to differ. Islamic communities have been butchering each other for ages, but they are regarded as acceptable/tolerable rulers as long as they are within a very wide Islamic narrative. Even a Shia sect ruling over Sunni-majority Syria for decades through brutal force ( tens of thousands killed to this day) was acceptable, as long as it falls under a status quo of 'Arabism". This may be changing these days, but entitlement is, like any habit, second nature, and only time will tell.

However, Jews? curses.

now if you want to then say that other arab countries use the israeli/palestinian situation in their own countries as propaganda to distract for example from their own domestic problems, then i would agree with you.

Well of course that's what I mean! The bloodiest of wars never were with the Palestinians, after all. 56? 6-day war? 73'? all wars perpetrated, at least in great part, by rulers of nearby countries, and sponsored by global powers.

What Horse did the palestinians have in the 67' race? 73'?
None.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict isn't just that, it is the Israeli Arab conflict. To pin it down on just Palestinians being oppressed is pure rubbish, after all, Palestinians (Good definition for Palestinians - Arab falahs and city dwellers of the southern Levant) have been opressed by pretty much every government around, and all governments around have had tried to grab a slice of this land, Abdallah's Machiavellian marriage non-withstanding ( yeah, I know she is also damn hot, but still, if you think he didn't think about it when he married her, I've got a bridge to sell to you).

[Az]

3. How many aboriginal heads have been collected by your criminal ancestors, you Aussie wanker ?

How's the Congo these days?


Let us not play "White man's ***** guilt trip" in this one. Don't worry, they had it coming, they would do just the same if they had the guns and the numbers.

[dannubis]

1. None of my family went to the Congo in the late 1800's
2. At the time of the mass murders Congo was "owned" by Leopold II and NOT the Belgian state

So nice try but no sigar.

I on the other hand don't have to go back 5 generations when I ask you how many Palestinian civilians your representative governement has killed the past few years.

[Az]

yay flamewar!

. At the time of the mass murders Congo was "owned" by Leopold II and NOT the Belgian state

lol

I on the other hand don't have to go back 5 generations when I ask you how many Palestinian civilians your representative governement has killed the past few years

Feeling smug about distancing yourself from raping the planet.
What was the Congo-Belgium border conflict again?

[Az]

Funny thing is, I don't feel morally superior to pretty nobody. It doesn't really matter, after all. The morality of this is meaningless, the only question that matters is who is going to stick around to write the books about it.

[Zoetstofzoetje]

The morality of this is meaningless, the only question that matters is who is going to stick around to write the books about it.

That's an interesting quote. It kind of gives away how you think about life: Screw everybody, use trickery, deceit, whatever, because all that matters is the outcome for you and those around you.