So why exactly is Israeli slaughtering protesters?

[loinburger]

Just explain why you are applying a double standard to the Christians and the Muslims and then we can move along.

[Docfeelgood]

Just explain why you are applying a double standard to the Christians and the Muslims and then we can move along.

I thought we were talking about the religious strife between Muslims and Jews?

Why do want to change the subject so bad?

[loinburger]

I thought we were talking about the religious strife between Muslims and Jews?

Why do want to change the subject so bad?

You are claiming that your mythical perpetual war is based entirely on religious conflict; however, the religious conflicts between Christians and Jews have been much more severe than the religious conflicts between Muslims and Jews. If you can provide a good reason for applying a double standard to the two religions then you support your case that the Israeli conflict is entirely based on religion. If you can't justify your double standard then your argument fails.

Now. Why are you applying a double standard?

[Docfeelgood]

This jealousy and resentment created an unparalleled hate which has set off wars and atrocities for four thousand years. It was the title deed to the land of Israel, which God promised to Abraham's lineage, that has been the source of the friction between the Jews and the Arabs right up to the present day.Muslims believe the Jews changed and distorted the Bible in order to establish themselves as the heirs of Abraham's Covenant blessings. According to Islamic tradition, Abraham had eight sons rather than two who were reared in Mecca, not Hebron. They insist it was Ishmael, not Isaac, whom Abraham was about to sacrifice on Mount Moriah when an angel stopped him. According to the Koran, the Abrahamic covenant, with its promises - including the title deed to the land of Israel - was passed down to the Arabs through Ishmael, rather than to the Jews through Isaac.

.

[loinburger]

This jealousy and resentment created an unparalleled hate which has set off wars and atrocities for four thousand years. It was the title deed to the land of Israel, which God promised to Abraham's lineage, that has been the source of the friction between the Jews and the Arabs right up to the present day.Muslims believe the Jews changed and distorted the Bible in order to establish themselves as the heirs of Abraham's Covenant blessings. According to Islamic tradition, Abraham had eight sons rather than two who were reared in Mecca, not Hebron. They insist it was Ishmael, not Isaac, whom Abraham was about to sacrifice on Mount Moriah when an angel stopped him. According to the Koran, the Abrahamic covenant, with its promises - including the title deed to the land of Israel - was passed down to the Arabs through Ishmael, rather than to the Jews through Isaac.

Please cite your sources next time. And that doesn't answer my question - why are you applying a double standard? Are you dismissing "Christ Killer" epithets as being irrelevant? Are the multitude of Christian-led pogroms irrelevant as well?

[Docfeelgood]

Thanks for the discussion.
I'm tired. I'm going to take my meds and I need a nap.

[Zevico]

Loin:

So what data do we have so far?

- There is no reliable evidence to indicate that the Israelis killed anyone as yet. Syrian propaganda=! reliable evidence.
- The IDF claims that a protester armed with a molotov cocktail dropped said cocktail on minefield, leading to the death of 8-10 people.
- The IDF claims it instructed soldiers using "clear rules of engagement" to shoot "a few" live fire bullets at protesters approaching the fence. Whether the protesters were armed, the IDF does not say, but it is possible given that some protesters were armed with molotov cocktails and large rocks. The instruction, according to the IDF, was to shoot at the legs.
- Az, an Israeli reservist soldier, states that in his experience such rules of engagement exist.

In short:
-IDF reports tend to be credible;
- While I haven't checked up on this as yet due to time constraints, there may also have been an israeli news media presence.


What does the word appropriate mean? Plainly it's not a pure numbers game. "Revenge" is a purposive word; "Self-defence" is a purposive word; it is impossible to divorce intention from the act itself.

Example: in the Gaza war, the Israelis reported that they killed about 700 Hamas fighters and 400 civilians. Hamas initially put the figure at 60 fighters and the rest civilians; later it confirmed that the Israeli figures were accurate (it declined to class trainee fighters as soldiers and put them in a separate category however). How are we to know if 400 civilians is too much or too little? Well, if they were all killed by firing squad (they weren't) then 400 is 400 too much.

Past that, the Israelis leafletted and sent text messages to Palestinians in Gaza to warn people to stay away from a given area at a given time. They called off many attacks when it was clear that civilians were visible to them in the area.

I think those are reasonable steps for a modern army to take to prevent civilian casualties. And ultimately, that's what matters: whether or not the Israelis took reasonable steps to prevent civilian casualties.

[Az]

With regards to the issues of inter-faith relationships, and their history, these are highly irrelevant as religions are just a part of a puzzle of relationships between different populations. Generalizing, bigger population which hold hegemony, such as muslims in the middle east or christians in europe, have varying degrees of tolerance to others in their mist. These degrees vary on an individual level and throughout time. Generally speaking, muslims have been more tolerant throughout history to others in their mist, but this has changed drastically in the 20th century, partly because decline in relative power in back-looking societies leads to scapegoating of minorities. It is similar to the rise in xenophobia in Europe and the US in parallel to their decline, as well as racism and antisemitism in Germany post WW1.

In simple language: Some people get butthurt instead of looking forward. If you get butthurt and come with a sense of self-entitlement to any competitive environment, you will lose, and you will look for someone to blame, because you cannot accept the fact that your actions have some sort of implication upon your consequence, and your ability to introspect is zero.

[C0ckney]

partly because decline in relative power in back-looking societies leads to scapegoating of minorities. It is similar to the rise in xenophobia in Europe and the US in parallel to their decline, as well as racism and antisemitism in Germany post WW1.

you were doing so well and then, well, you managed to come up with this load of crap.

[notyoueither]

How is that a load of crap?

[OneFootInTheGrave]

With regards to the issues of inter-faith relationships, and their history, these are highly irrelevant as religions are just a part of a puzzle of relationships between different populations. Generalizing, bigger population which hold hegemony, such as muslims in the middle east or christians in europe, have varying degrees of tolerance to others in their mist. These degrees vary on an individual level and throughout time. Generally speaking, muslims have been more tolerant throughout history to others in their mist, but this has changed drastically in the 20th century, partly because decline in relative power in back-looking societies leads to scapegoating of minorities. It is similar to the rise in xenophobia in Europe and the US in parallel to their decline, as well as racism and antisemitism in Germany post WW1.

In simple language: Some people get butthurt instead of looking forward. If you get butthurt and come with a sense of self-entitlement to any competitive environment, you will lose, and you will look for someone to blame, because you cannot accept the fact that your actions have some sort of implication upon your consequence, and your ability to introspect is zero.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

you were doing so well and then, well, you managed to come up with this load of crap.

US perhaps not ... but in Europe the xenophobia and Jew killing during the middle ages is very much related to the "bad events" or decline... like the black plague, etc... people are looking for a scapegoat and Jews and other foreigners like gypsies, non majority religion, etc... easily get on the agenda...

[Zoetstofzoetje]

this scapegoat argument is so common. "they're different, we don't like them!". "we're victims, they're discriminating against us!"

i lived in Poland for a while. the common opinion on jews there was still not favourable, even though there were almost none left there. most note that 'hitler should have finished the job'. when i passed through Hungary, locals said the same.

when i asked why, the answer always was: "they were slowly pushing us out of our own country". one said, "they're doing the same in the middle east now". examples were plenty; i.e. jewish shop-owners that would push non-jewish competition out of business by artificially lowering prices, until the polish competitor was bankrupt. of course, nobody is holy, and we can expect this from the polish as well. but you need to remember that opinions are based on more than 'being different', there is in part some underlying dynamic and material cause that is causing these negative perceptions.

cause and effect are never singular - and here we should expect a networked set of relations at work as well. in other words, multiple causes, multiple outcomes, no victim and boogeyman, but an interaction across groups.

in israel/palestina, you're as much part of the cause as the outcome. in part YOU subjected yourself to the conditions that now haunt you. stop acting like a victim! learn to live with it, or shut up. we have our own worries outside of your tiny piece of desert, and i don't want to hear about your grief all the time.

[Zevico]

but you need to remember that opinions are based on more than 'being different', there is in part some underlying dynamic and material cause that is causing these negative perceptions.

Of course. There is a rich vein of religious racism and racial racism in these countries. It's a convenient excuse for their failings. This is basically true among Palestinians as well, not to mention the entire Arab world, which basically still believes that the Arab/Muslim 'nation' is a great power, or would be if they all agreed to stone adulterers to death. Inferiority complexes and what not.

[dannubis]

Bla bla bla... Israel is no better:

Why the **** are you building settlements on the West Bank ? - Well God promised us this land... - Ah, OK in that case...

What is a fact is that very often in foreign countries Jewish communities are very closed. This creates an "us angainst them mentality" that if left unchecked results in pogroms or worse.