Why is it so hard to be a part-time bank teller (or to get any job)?

[KrazyHorse]

Nonsense, game theory was devised to demonstrate that this can be inherently wrong for many decisions.

No. In fact, I doubt you understand the first thing about game theory.

[KrazyHorse]

Governments are massively bloated behemoths that move slowly, react to yesterday's needs and are horribly incentivized to actually provide value to their constituents.

I'll take my fellow human beings' incentivized urge to provide me with what I want every single time there's not an obvious market failure (e.g. externality, public good, etc)

[DaShi]

Short term gains outweigh long-term ones. That's why there is a discount factor (yet another individual choice which I can't make for other people).

There's no discount factor on life.

So instead of this you think the gov should be telling people to all do the same thing because IT thinks they should? Holy ****, you're substituting an externally-enforced uniformity for self-determined value in mimicry.

Nope. Never said that.

Why not? You've already explained how they make better decisions for people than they themselves do. Why not carry this to its logical conclusion?

Because my stance isn't that the government can make the best decision in all cases or that individuals can make the best decision in all cases. If the world was that simple, there'd be no need for PhDs.

Stop trying to conflate costs individuals can impose upon others with the costs they impose on themselves.

I don't think you can separate the two.

[DaShi]

Governments are massively bloated behemoths that move slowly, react to yesterday's needs and are horribly incentivized to actually provide value to their constituents.

I'll take my fellow human beings' incentivized urge to provide me with what I want every single time there's not an obvious market failure (e.g. externality, public good, etc)

I think we aren't so much in disagreement here. I just have a broader definition of market failure.

[KrazyHorse]

There's no discount factor on life.

You can't hug your children with nuclear arms!

Nope. Never said that.

Yes, you did. If people can't be trusted to make a decision for themselves because they simply imitate others then you are claiming that the government's imposition of conformity is better than self-imposition of conformity.

Because my stance isn't that the government can make the best decision in all cases or that individuals can make the best decision in all cases. If the world was that simple, there'd be no need for PhDs.

This makes no sense. THe government is NO BETTER at absorbing expert advice than is the average person. Certainly no better at translating it into the value to individuals than those individuals are.

I don't think you can separate the two.

No, you simply don't want to because your argument becomes much less appealing when it's reveale that you're simply saying bureaucrats can run my life better than I can.

[DaShi]

And to bring us back on topic:

Albie has a ton of information and, sadly, time to make good decisions. Yet, he consistently fails to do so.

[KrazyHorse]

I think we aren't so much in disagreement here. I just have a broader definition of market failure.

Please give me your definition of "market failure". Mine is that the market solution leads to a Pareto-inefficient state. So far, yours appears to be "any time I think I know better than other people what is good for them".

[KrazyHorse]

And to bring us back on topic:

Albie has a ton of information and, sadly, time to make good decisions. Yet, he consistently fails to do so.

albie has far less information that I do on this subject. And I've spent far more time thinking about what can help him achieve his goals than any government agency ever will.

If he told me "I want to join the marines because I think I'll enjoy the marines" then I'd have no problem accepting that. When he tells me "I want to join the marines because it will help me become a banker", then I have enough information to correct him. If he's lying to me and he means "I am claiming to want to join the marines because it will help me become a banker, but in reality I want to just go ahead and kill brown people", then he has me trumped.

[DaShi]

Yes, you did. If people can't be trusted to make a decision for themselves because they simply imitate others then you are claiming that the government's imposition of conformity is better than self-imposition of conformity.

In circumstances where people do make destruction decisions through imitating others, then, yes, I do support government intervention.

This makes no sense. THe government is NO BETTER at absorbing expert advice than is the average person. Certainly no better at translating it into the value to individuals than those individuals are.

Not convinced.

No, you simply don't want to because your argument becomes much less appealing when it's reveale that you're simply saying bureaucrats can run my life better than I can.

That the hyperbolic version of my argument, yes.

[giblets]

Previously addressed. By a high school student. You ****ing dolt.

I graduated from high school a couple years ago.

[KrazyHorse]

In other words, it's the EXACT THING YOU'RE SAYING.

[KrazyHorse]

I graduated from high school a couple years ago.

See above

[DaShi]

Please give me your definition of "market failure". Mine is that the market solution leads to a Pareto-inefficient state. So far, yours appears to be "any time I think I know better than other people what is good for them".

I'm not an expert, nor have I extensively studied this (feel free to add "I noticed") so I pulled this definition off of wikipedia that pretty much sums up my opinion of it: "Market failures can be viewed as scenarios where individuals' pursuit of pure self-interest leads to results that are not efficient – that can be improved upon from the societal point-of-view." I'll admit that it is not as clean as yours in a mathematical sense.

Wiki also associates market failure with informational asymmetries, so take of it what you will. I'm checking out the babe thread and then going to bed.

[giblets]

I'm not an expert, nor have I extensively studied this (feel free to add "I noticed") so I pulled this definition off of wikipedia that pretty much sums up my opinion of it: "Market failures can be viewed as scenarios where individuals' pursuit of pure self-interest leads to results that are not efficient – that can be improved upon from the societal point-of-view." I'll admit that it is not as clean as yours in a mathematical sense.

Wiki also associates market failure with informational asymmetries, so take of it what you will. I'm checking out the babe thread and then going to bed.

So, according to wikipedia a market failure occurs whenever a majority of the population doesn't like something the market did?

[giblets]

Actually, it looks like the wikipedia page is mostly in line with how Krazyhorse defined it. See the first two sentences:

Market failure is a concept within economic theory wherein the allocation of goods and services by a free market is not efficient. That is, there exists another conceivable outcome where a market participant may be made better-off without making someone else worse-off.