European Militaries Don't Need US? Oh Really??

[David Floyd]

Apparently, contrary to what some of you have been saying, Europe - or at least Britain, which arguably has the most powerful European military - does not in fact have the capability to conduct prolonged military operations against minor regional powers. Such as, say, Libya. HAHA!

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http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/3581998/UK-forced-to-borrow-spy-plane-from-US.html

COST-CUTTING Britain has been forced to go cap in hand to borrow a US spy plane to protect our ships in Libya.

Top Brass had to ask for help after last year's controversial decision to axe Nimrods left the UK with NO airborne maritime surveillance capability.

A US Navy P-3 Orion is now keeping watch over HMS Liverpool, mine hunter HMS Brocklesby and nuclear sub HMS Triumph. It has a US crew and is making regular sweeps off Mad Dog Gaddafi's coast. It will provide information on potential threats to the three vessels.

A source said: "It's all deeply embarrassing, but we can't have our guys with no protection so we have to rely on others."

The new Nimrods were scrapped in the Strategic Defence and Security Review. Ministers claimed the decision would save roughly £2billion but military figures blasted the move.

In an open letter to the Government, six ex-defence chiefs branded it "perverse".

The source said: "Many feel we've been caught short by the cuts." An MoD spokesman said: "We are part of a Nato alliance and will pool assets as and when required."

Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...#ixzz1MUOrpLRd

[Lonestar]

About a month ago the NATO militaries were reporting that the fighting in Libya had nearly completely emptied their stock of PGMs. Some were borrowed from the US(Paveway family bombs), but for the NATO planes wired only for Euro-munitions (teh Mirage 2000, Rafale, Typhoon) they were up the proverbial creek. Bear in mind that this is a very "light" war, and Europe is basically proving it cannot fight without signifigant investment on behalf of the US.

[Docfeelgood]

little help is better than no help

[Docfeelgood]

About a month ago the NATO militaries were reporting that the fighting in Libya had nearly completely emptied their stock of PGMs. Some were borrowed from the US(Paveway family bombs), but for the NATO planes wired only for Euro-munitions (teh Mirage 2000, Rafale, Typhoon) they were up the proverbial creek. Bear in mind that this is a very "light" war, and Europe is basically proving it cannot fight without signifigant investment on behalf of the US.

[Lonestar]

Europe is using less than a 100 warplanes and flying (on most days) fewer than 50 air-to-ground missions a day. A US CVN would have a better sortie rate, and it's pretty damning that it's a Big Deal that we're sending 4 armed Predators to Libya.

[Docfeelgood]

Europe is using less than a 100 warplanes and flying (on most days) fewer than 50 air-to-ground missions a day. A US CVN would have a better sortie rate, and it's pretty damning that it's a Big Deal that we're sending 4 armed Predators to Libya.

Now I understand why the Somali pirates are a problem.

[Lonestar]

Now I understand why the Somali pirates are a problem.

That isn't why. Somali piracy is a sympton of the failed state on land. Unless you're advocating blowing up every dhow in the Northern Arabian Sea and putting a stabilization force ashore, there isn't much you can do besides continue to flood the area with naval and air assets.

You don't need a Rafale with PGMs to get rid of piracy.

You do need a high performance aircraft with PGMs to bomb Libyan assets that are located within civilian areas. The inability of the Euros to do more than the bare minimum is why Misrata is so screwed up.

[Hauldren Collider]

I think I started a thread like this just about a month ago. Still, DF

Pulling your own weight

European defense free-riders

Asher

[David Floyd]

That isn't why. Somali piracy is a sympton of the failed state on land. Unless you're advocating blowing up every dhow in the Northern Arabian Sea and putting a stabilization force ashore, there isn't much you can do besides continue to flood the area with naval and air assets.

Complete naval blockade of Somalia. Marine landing parties to literally burn to the ground every coastal town found to harbor pirates. Pirates to be shot on sight.

Yup, that should do it

What we should have done in the Libya situation, though, would have been to denounce the European war in Libya and refuse to provide logistical or military support. I mean, France and Germany have been dicking us around for years now - why should we support France's war in Libya if France didn't support ours in Iraq?

Come to think of it, I bet France feels pretty stupid now for refusing us overflight rights to bomb Libya back in the 1980s, now that they have to ask the US for support in bombing them 25 years later. I'd tell 'em to go **** in their hats, but that's just me. Ironic much?

[Hauldren Collider]

I find myself totally agreeing with David Floyd here, Europe needs a good kick in the pants to realize that when THEY feel a bit expeditionary they're going to need their own goddamn armed forces to back that up. If it takes a deadly Gaddafi victory to make that happen, so be it.

[Docfeelgood]

Come to think of it, I bet France feels pretty stupid now for refusing us overflight rights to bomb Libya back in the 1980s, now that they have to ask the US for support in bombing them 25 years later. I'd tell 'em to go **** in their hats, but that's just me. Ironic much?

[David Floyd]

I am kinda rooting for Gaddafi here. He never did **** to me, and he renounced terror years ago.

[Lonestar]

Complete naval blockade of Somalia. Marine landing parties to literally burn to the ground every coastal town found to harbor pirates. Pirates to be shot on sight.

Yup, that should do it

(1)Who decides who the "pirates" in town are?

(2)How are you going to prevent the Somalis from executing every hostage they have?

(3)How are you going to nab the pirates, who might just go further inland, wait otu the landing party, and then return to pirating?

[Asher]

I think I started a thread like this just about a month ago. Still, DF

Pulling your own weight

European defense free-riders

Asher

Canada has many naval surveillance planes that are idle in Canada. Only a couple were sent to Libya.

This smells of UK politiking more than anything else, and you guys are too dumb to recognizes it when you see it. See the source ("a source", from The Sun...seriously?) and the people complaining and "requesting".

Naive Americans that don't understand politics outside of their country.

[Asher]

I find myself totally agreeing with David Floyd here, Europe needs a good kick in the pants to realize that when THEY feel a bit expeditionary they're going to need their own goddamn armed forces to back that up. If it takes a deadly Gaddafi victory to make that happen, so be it.

Europe (and Canada) need a kick in the pants here to realize they shouldn't be ****ing bombing Libya in the first place.

You guys are missing the point completely. You're complete idiots if you think in wartime these nations couldn't ramp up their military production and allocations (blahblah, Canada had what, the 3rd largest Navy by the end of WW2, etc). The simple fact is we're not at a state of war, and it's ****ing retarded to spend money on building massive stockpiles of bombs that will become obsolete in a decade and SHOULDN'T BE USED ANYWAY.

It's a problem of missed priorities. This isn't about how ****ing fantastic the US is for spending so much money on stockpiles of munitions instead of providing basic healthcare for its citizens, it's about how the politicians in the Uk, Canada, France, etc are too ****ing stupid to know enough to mind their own business. Adjust your arguments accordingly.

I have a solution to everyone's problem: Get the **** out of Libya; Get the **** out of Iraq; Get the **** out of Afghanistan

Suddenly this problem just goes away.