Wisconsin Takes A Stand For Fiscal Sanity

[notyoueither]

Teachers may not enjoy the luxury of several employers in their market. I'd be surprised if they did.

Are you kidding?

No.

Teachers here are covered by a province-wide labour contract for publically funded school systems. There is a very small number of private school jobs.

I assume that public school jobs are a similar if not exactly equal proportion of jobs in the US.

[Kuciwalker]

In the US, it varies heavily from state to state whether these things are set at the state or municipal level. Moreover, it's not that difficult to move to a different state. Moreover, teachers have the option of working in a different field.

[KrazyHorse]

Or for a private school

[Kuciwalker]

Yes, those are somewhat more common in the US than nye is implying they are in Canada.

[Aeson]

Creating unions creates an institution whose only purpose can be to resist the legislature. It cannot do anything else!

I have already addressed this. It allows voters to support general concepts rather than have to wrestle with day to day decisions. This is the whole point of representative democracy in fact. If voters choose to allow unions a part in representing their wishes in some specific cases, that's not anti-democratic.

We're giving them that power with respect to negotiating with us. If the grant of power cannot be revoked it's antidemocratic, and if it can, it's pointless.

No, there is a point. See above and below.

That is, of course, ridiculous. That plays directly into HC's point that the best poll question is "should teachers be able to unilaterally set their own pay?"

Only if you live in a fantasy world where there are no checks to union demands.

There is an obvious and essential difference between saying "X is a bad policy; voters should not vote for that policy" and "X is a bad policy; voters should be proscribed from voting for that policy".

You aren't simply saying the first. You are claiming that the additional difficulty in overturning it later on makes it "anti-democratic". I simply pointed out that all laws which are implemented will make those laws more difficult to overturn in the future. By extending your logic, all laws would be anti-democratic.

[Kuciwalker]

I have already addressed this. It allows voters to support general concepts rather than have to wrestle with day to day decisions. This is the whole point of representative democracy in fact. If voters choose to allow unions a part in representing their wishes in some specific cases, that's not anti-democratic.

This is a bizarre and convoluted theory, given that the actual reason public sector unions were created in the first place was because the Soviet Union and its client states didn't permit them. They persist because they are naturally self-perpetuating institutions.

You aren't simply saying the first. You are claiming that the additional difficulty in overturning it later on makes it "anti-democratic". I simply pointed out that all laws which are implemented will make those laws more difficult to overturn in the future. By extending your logic, all laws would be anti-democratic.

The effect of public sector unions goes well beyond mere status quo bias.

[notyoueither]

In the US, it varies heavily from state to state whether these things are set at the state or municipal level. Moreover, it's not that difficult to move to a different state. Moreover, teachers have the option of working in a different field.

Selling your house is really easy right about now, I suppose. Then you get to move your family as well. Really easy, or not.

You expect people to change fields after investing four years in qualifications just because some governor is a knob?

[Kuciwalker]

You expect people to change fieldS after investing four years in qualifications just because some governor is a knob?

Sure, if the person isn't willing to work for the wages the voters are willing to pay.

And in no state, I believe, does the governor have the kind of unilateral power you attribute to him.

[notyoueither]

Yes, those are somewhat more common in the US than nye is implying they are in Canada.

How many public/private school positions are there? Let's refine it and just speak of a wealthy state, like Virginia.

[notyoueither]

You expect people to change fieldS after investing four years in qualifications just because some governor is a knob?

Sure, if the person isn't willing to work for the wages the voters are willing to pay.

But it isn't the voters. It's the adminstration.

[Kuciwalker]

I don't have numbers at the moment, but Northern Virginia has a lot of private schools. If you include DC and the bordering areas of Maryland the proportion is even bigger.

(DC especially has a lot. None of the rich people there want to send their kids to the awful public schools.)

[notyoueither]

I'd be interested in knowing the numbers if you can find them. I assumed it would be a very high percentage of private school positions.

[Kuciwalker]

edit: my logic was stupid, trying to find better numbers

[KrazyHorse]

I am having an incredibly hard time here understanding how anybody other than a public-sector worker can possibly support the existence of an organization which exists solely to extract monopoly rents from everybody else...

[KrazyHorse]

edit: I had the wrong link here

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=55

Total US statistics:

In the 2007–08 school year, there were an estimated 119,150 K–12 schools in the United States: 87,190 traditional public, 3,560 public charter, 180 Bureau of Indian Education-funded (BIE), and 28,220 private schools.

...

As reported by teachers in 2007–08, among public school teachers of self-contained classes in elementary schools, the average class size was 20.3 students per class. Among private school teachers of self-contained classes in elementary schools, the average class size was 18.1 students per class.

So the total number of schools should correspond roughly to the total number of teaching positions, and private school teachers are about 1/4 of total teachers.

Are you assuming that the student body is the same size in public schools as in private?