Wisconsin Takes A Stand For Fiscal Sanity

[KrazyHorse]

edit: I had the wrong link here

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=55

Total US statistics:

In the 2007–08 school year, there were an estimated 119,150 K–12 schools in the United States: 87,190 traditional public, 3,560 public charter, 180 Bureau of Indian Education-funded (BIE), and 28,220 private schools.

...

As reported by teachers in 2007–08, among public school teachers of self-contained classes in elementary schools, the average class size was 20.3 students per class. Among private school teachers of self-contained classes in elementary schools, the average class size was 18.1 students per class.

So the total number of schools should correspond roughly to the total number of teaching positions, and private school teachers are about 1/4 of total teachers.

Are you assuming that the student body is the same size in public schools as in private?

[Kuciwalker]

Yes, I was, which is why I edited out the post. (That is of course a ridiculous and incorrect assumption.)

[Kuciwalker]

I don't think I can get decent data out of that report, because it looks like its enrollment numbers are only for schools that participated in the survey.

[Aeson]

This is a bizarre and convoluted theory, given that the actual reason public sector unions were created in the first place was because the Soviet Union and its client states didn't permit them.

I didn't address why public sector unions were created. It's your misrepresentation of the argument that is bizarre and convoluted. (To the point I never saw it coming... congrats... that's rare.) The reasons for public sector unions being created way back when an irrelevant question as to what the point of having public sector unions actually is today.

You claimed there was no possible point because all it can do is resist the legislature. I gave an example of a point to public sector unions.

They persist because they are naturally self-perpetuating institutions.

... as long* as the will of the people supports letting them continue.

The effect of public sector unions goes well beyond mere status quo bias.

As do many other laws. How much so is debatable. *In this specific case it seems that public sector unions are vulnerable to being broken up (however it turns out in the end) even without popular support for that specific action. Not very difficult is it then?

[Kuciwalker]

You claimed there was no possible point because all it can do is resist the legislature. I gave an example of a point to public sector unions.

The point you gave was that they can... resist the legislature.

[Aeson]

.. which is ironic since you claim there is no point and yet gave the example

[Aeson]

Although that wasn't actually my point. Resist the legislature is only an effect of the "point".

[Krill]

It's harder when the union can strike. It's harder when the union gets to collect dues from all employees and use them to fund pro-union candidates.

If what you describe were realistic, what would the point of a union be? If we want to give the employees some amount of pay and benefits, why don't we just do that?

And what if the employees want more?

[Kuciwalker]

If the employees want more and we think we should give them more then we can just give them more. If they want more and we don't think we should give them more, then we shouldn't give them a way to force us to give them more.

There is no combination of preferences where it is rational for us to deny our own.

[Krill]

If the employees want more and we think we should give them more then we can just give them more. If they want more and we don't think we should give them more, then we shouldn't give them a way to force us to give them more.

There is no combination of preferences where it is rational for us to deny our own.

Such an idealist, Kuci. You do understand how most employee evaluations work?

[Kuciwalker]

You think teacher pay is set on the basis of individual performance reviews?

And you call me an idealist?

[Krill]

You think teacher pay is set on the basis of individual performance reviews?

And you call me an idealist?

In the UK, Teacher pay is set according to the blue book, however, NHS pay isn't: it's set on bandings, but within those bandings there are competency reviews, and that competency is not judged by the people...on top of that there is an insane amount of work place politics about promotions.

[Kuciwalker]

And this would improve with a doctor's union... how?

[DaShi]

The doctors should unionize. The government and insurance companies are looking to take away their meager earnings.

[Krill]

The majority employed by the NHS are doctors?