Religion: Real or Fake

[MOBIUS]

And here, I thought it would be tough to make Ben look enlightened.

Hence my Son of Ben quip

[rah]

[Kidlicious]

Gee, I sure hope you're not implying that you have to be religious to follow a moral code.

Social norms. Religious people aren't the only ones who conform to society. It's a natural thing. You hardly need religion.

[Robert]

Atheists are moral, the question is why they are, it's not consistent with their believes.
In the end that can only lead to the conclusion that atheists are morally superior because they are moral despite the fact that they are atheists. No pun intended. This is not a stab at atheism as an immoral world view. It's in fact a bit in line with the reasoning of Nietzsche. Why would a man be moral if life has no purpose? If there's no greater good.

Nietzsche is quite pessimistic. He just assumes that the modern man did not yet understand that there are no moral codes needed in a god-less world. He fears that the true anarchy will break out when we find out. (and then it'll be the ubermensch who will reign and the untermensch who will suffer).

Anyway, I do believe that humans, even without believing in God or in his existence, will try to live a good life. Everybody wants to do good.

[Robert]

You nut. Jesus quoted the OT.

Quoting the OT doesn't mean that he wants us to live up to it.
I have quoted the Qu'ran.

I'd not agree with MikeH that Jesus told us to ignore the OT.
The closest anybody come to that would be Paul, but he still never said we should ignore the OT. He just said that we shouldn't live up to the laws of the OT because we are dead for these laws.

There's a lot more in the OT then only laws. And even the laws, even if they're not a moral code to follow anymore, hold significant value for the understanding of the NT.

[DaShi]

Now you're comparing yourself to Jesus.

[giblets]

Atheists are moral, the question is why they are, it's not consistent with their believes.
In the end that can only lead to the conclusion that atheists are morally superior because they are moral despite the fact that they are atheists. No pun intended. This is not a stab at atheism as an immoral world view. It's in fact a bit in line with the reasoning of Nietzsche. Why would a man be moral if life has no purpose? If there's no greater good.

It puzzles me.

I'm serious when I say that a moral atheist seems to be morally superior to a moral theist.

I have similar question about some Christians. Why would they bother being moral if going to heaven is based solely on whether you accept Jesus, not how good your actions are? It's puzzling. It only makes sense for Christians to care about morality if they think works also matter.

[MOBIUS]

Not to mention those ****wit Catholics that can run riot right up until they confess their sins on their death bed...

[Imran Siddiqui]

I have similar question about some Christians. Why would they bother being moral if going to heaven is based solely on whether you accept Jesus, not how good your actions are? It's puzzling. It only makes sense for Christians to care about morality if they think works also matter.

Well Catholics do believe works matter, of course. Protestants, well at least most of them, believe that true faith in Jesus is manifested in works - ie, if you have really accepted Jesus in your heart and soul, you will be transformed and feel a pressing need to help those less fortunate.

[DinoDoc]

I have similar question about some Christians. Why would they bother being moral if going to heaven is based solely on whether you accept Jesus, not how good your actions are? It's puzzling. It only makes sense for Christians to care about morality if they think works also matter.

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - James 2:14-26

[Proteus_MST]

Quoting the OT doesn't mean that he wants us to live up to it.
I have quoted the Qu'ran.

I'd not agree with MikeH that Jesus told us to ignore the OT.
The closest anybody come to that would be Paul, but he still never said we should ignore the OT. He just said that we shouldn't live up to the laws of the OT because we are dead for these laws.

There's a lot more in the OT then only laws. And even the laws, even if they're not a moral code to follow anymore, hold significant value for the understanding of the NT.

Actually IMHO it seems to be absolutely necessary to read the OT as well as the NT,
after all (according to christian faith) the god in the OT is the same god as the one in the NT.

But then IMHO the problems start,
because the god in the OT is a divine entity I personally would call rather evil and unjust
and doesn´t fit to the god of the new testament.
(just for a few examples:
god killing someone because he wanted to prevent the arc of covenant from falling from a cart (2 Samuel 6:2-7)
god killing a whole tribe just because they questioned Moses Leadership (Num 16:20-33)
god ordering genocides (including the enemy cattle/pets) (1 Samuel 15:2 )
and so on)

Now we can surely just say that the OT was written by men and inspired by the morals and culture of that time,
but the same holds true for the NT (especially considering the fact that, when a certain version of christianity gained influence in the roman empire (thanks to constantine), it inevitably lead to the persecution of the other versions of early christianity (for example gnostics or those christian cults who questioned the divinity of Jesus) and the burning of their scriptures...meaning that a lot of early christian literature (which might have contradicted the scriptures in the bible) probably is lost forever).

So what keeps us from seeing Jesus as just a literary example of a good person (disconnected from any faith in YHWH/God/Allah and disconnected from the question whetherJesus really existed or not [and also disconnected from any NT-Passages that don´t cast such a positive light upon Jesus])

[Provost Harrison]

I think whatever happens between two consenting adults, or a consenting adult and a figment of his imagination is fine if it affects no one else.

[Kidlicious]

Atheists are moral, the question is why they are, it's not consistent with their believes.
In the end that can only lead to the conclusion that atheists are morally superior because they are moral despite the fact that they are atheists. No pun intended. This is not a stab at atheism as an immoral world view. It's in fact a bit in line with the reasoning of Nietzsche. Why would a man be moral if life has no purpose? If there's no greater good.

Nietzsche is quite pessimistic. He just assumes that the modern man did not yet understand that there are no moral codes needed in a god-less world. He fears that the true anarchy will break out when we find out. (and then it'll be the ubermensch who will reign and the untermensch who will suffer).

Anyway, I do believe that humans, even without believing in God or in his existence, will try to live a good life. Everybody wants to do good.

Following social norms doesn't make you moral anymore than sticking feathers in your butt makes you a chicken. If I don't believe in my principles enough to be willing to offend society then I don't have any principles except one, that I will not offend people.

[Kidlicious]

I have similar question about some Christians. Why would they bother being moral if going to heaven is based solely on whether you accept Jesus, not how good your actions are? It's puzzling. It only makes sense for Christians to care about morality if they think works also matter.

The question is did you actually accept Jesus or did you just avoid the offense of him. Are you willing to be an offense to the world and stand up for what you believe. If so then you are moral.

[Kidlicious]

Quoting the OT doesn't mean that he wants us to live up to it.

He definitely wants us to live up to God's law. What he taught was that the individual must follow God's law as he understands it inwardly in spit of what the established order or society calls God's law. The individual must find the Truth within himself.