Germany never changes... German leader says multiculturalism has failed.

[OzzyKP]

This is your example of multiculturalism in France? Now tell me, which of those languages are non-western European in nature? Idiot. You should stick to pushing a cause no one cares about and leaching off of donations in your non-profit.

Yet again, Western Europeans.

You're seriously using food as your example of multiculturalism? Seriously? Could you possibly come up with an example with less impact than this? Unbelievable.

Your entire argument is based on the immigration of a people from a similar culture to another similar culture.

Wow, I didn't expect someone to miss the boat quite that bad. Yikes. Not sure how much more I should dumb myself down. The only reason you think France and Germany have "similar cultures" is because of multi-culturalism. There was a time really not long ago when different western European nations regarded each other as radically different cultures. Completely incompatible and alien to each other. There was a time, not too long before that, when different groups within each of those western European nations regarded each other as radically different cultures that were completely incompatible with each other. "French" or "German" are as meaningless a race as "American" and "Mexican" we are all mixtures of different groups. We mix our blood, we mix our language, we mix our traditions, we mix our food, we mix our music, we mix our culture. Everyone everywhere is a mix of someone. Find me a Frechman or an Englishman or a German in 200 AD. These nationalities are just ideas that were created over time. The only thing stopping other ideas from being created is imagination.

OZZY, DUDE! You're under-estimating the significance of being a nation built on immigration and a nation not built on immigration. Immigrants to the US more or less started over. That's an entirely different situation than the European countries, including but certainly not limited to colonial powers. Add to that the extended welfare state in many countries and try to realize the situations are very much different.

Yes, I grant that the US has a different history and approach to immigration than Europe. And as long as you are willing to admit that the US is more pluralistic, tolerant, open, and less racist than Europe, I'll be willing to let you guys have your stricter immigration rules. But if you keep pretending to be beacons of liberal tolerance then I'm going to keep calling you on your hypocrisy. And if your overly generous welfare state is the point of friction... well maybe that's the problem, not the immigrants.

Finally, regardless of what different Europeans thought about each other in 18-whatever, they are - both then and now - closer to each other than the European and, say, Arab. That's true in a religious, political, cultural and historical sense, to say nothing of the linguistic ties. That doesn't mean that all the English and Italians liked each other, sure, but it certainly paved the way for their children to assimilate into the same country.

I really don't think you are correct about this. Look at the French-Ottoman alliance 500 years ago. France had more to fear from their European neighbors and rivals than from the Muslims. Ok, you say that there is a huge gulf on religious, political, cultural, historical and linguistic ties. Ok. Is the west not tolerant of Jews, or Hindus, or Atheists? Now, obviously, Europe has an abysmal record dealing with Jews, but it seems it has been mostly overcome now. Do you see accepting Islam as somehow a higher hurdle? Political differences... don't all our nations have political differences? Deep, severe ones? Heck you guys still have communists running around. Cultural... again, there have always been very big cultural differences between western nations, they just kind of melted away over time or stopped being a big deal. Why do you think it'll be any different with the Muslim world? I've known plenty of Muslims here in the US and they listen to the same music, dress the same, talk the same, and watch the same movies I do. Where's the problem? Historical sense... our history is absolutely tied to the Muslim world, always has been. Linguisticly.. well duh, Europe has many different languages, so?

The idea of all immigrants being lumped together that way is unwise at best and dangerous at worst. At least in Denmark and presumably in many other countries, statistics will show that the Hungarian immigrants of 1956 or the Chilean ones of 1973 blended in virtually without any fuss. There's no German street gangs or any alarming number of Norwegians on welfare either. That's less true for certain other nationalities, to say the least, and you can hardly blame it all on racism.

I think racism is a big part of it. We have a lot of black street gangs here, we have a lot of black people on welfare here, we have had a lot of black riots in our past, is that because they are inferior people destroying the fabric of our society and should be kicked out? No. There are many factors there, but mostly it is racism and the lingering aftershocks of racism (poverty, lack of education, broken families, the drug war, etc) that is to blame.

[Monk]

Anyone else find this similar to something a Klansman would say... Black people commit all these crimes and are gang members and need to be deported back to Africa because they threaten the White American way of life!

Jeeez Al, I had no idea it was particularly 'klansmanish' to recognise that some nationalities integrate or assimilate significantly easier than others. I don't know if this klansman reference of yours is meant to be a troll or just some knee-jerk reaction, but either how you should be able to come up with something better than a quasi-Godwin retort. I mean, come on, you were the one starting the thread in the first place.

[Monk]

Now OZZY - thanks for reopening by the way! -

There was a time really not long ago when different western European nations regarded each other as radically different cultures.

You missed my point. It doesn't matter what they thought. It matters what they were, namely different - but less different than they could have been.

And as long as you are willing to admit that the US is more pluralistic, tolerant, open, and less racist than Europe, I'll be willing to let you guys have your stricter immigration rules.

Depends on what you mean with Europe. If you're comparing the US as a whole to Europe as a whole, the US will certainly lose out on the pluralistic question. If you're comparing the US to individual European countries, I'll agree. On the racism and tolerance part, I'm unsure because I lack a way to actually measure racism and tolerance. I certainly don't think it's just a question of looking at the official politics of a country. But maybe I'm straying off-topic now.

But if you keep pretending to be beacons of liberal tolerance then I'm going to keep calling you on your hypocrisy.

The paradox is that a good deal of opposition to immigration from Muslim countries actually stems from the fact that there's less liberal tolerance there. Other than that, where does this notion come from that "we", as you put it, are on a lifelong quest to put "you" down? Any other place than a message board haunted by trollers? And why do we have to literally use those "you", "we", "us", "them" terms when referring to entire countries or continents?

Ok. Is the west not tolerant of Jews, or Hindus, or Atheists?

That's right. But the Jews have been around forever. The European Jews speak European languages and I'd wager they contribute more to their society in general than immigrants from Somalia, to use an extreme example. The Hindus don't come in significant numbers, and as for the atheists, they still belong to a culture that's Christian regardless of their personal confessions.

Do you see accepting Islam as somehow a higher hurdle?

Absolutely. Except I wouldn't phrase it as accepting Islam or not accepting Islam. People can believe in whichever god they want for all that I care. What I'm opposing is significant immigration from predominantly Muslim countries - not the Muslims themselves.

Cultural... again, there have always been very big cultural differences between western nations, they just kind of melted away over time or stopped being a big deal. Why do you think it'll be any different with the Muslim world?

Because they're not Westerners and so we can't expect them to assimilate like Westerners generally do.

I've known plenty of Muslims here in the US and they listen to the same music, dress the same, talk the same, and watch the same movies I do. Where's the problem?

I certainly don't have a problem with your friends, I'm sure they're nice people. I have a problem with too much immigration from predominantly Muslim countries.

Linguisticly.. well duh, Europe has many different languages, so?

That's right. But Western European countries generally use the same alphabet, roughly the same grammatical structure and many words are similar. Are you actually expecting it wouldn't be substantially more difficult for you to learn Arabic than to learn Dutch? To say nothing of how much more estranged you'd feel if you were starting over in Arabia rather than The Netherlands? Then you get the point ...

[DriXnaK]

I'll just sum up your post with one word Ozzy, "relativism." Basically you think that the cultural differences of the past are no different than the cultural differences of today. Either you're completely ignorant of history and the cultures that dominated Europe over the past 2000 years, or you're intellectually dishonest. If you go back and look at the cultures over this time period you will see that they were all relatively the same, even if it is true that they may have seen each other as a different race or culture. The same can't be said of muslims and arabs immigrating to Europe now. Why do you think there were wars fought between Muslims and Christians in the first place throughout history? The gulf between Western Europeans today and Arabs is absolutely enormous compared to the small differences that earlier Europeans displayed. I have to remember who I'm dealing with here, but I'm amazed that you're even trying to make this argument. Arabs will never assimilate in Western European nations because their cultural identity runs so contrary to their adoptive nations. Your example of Irish Christians from a western European nation immigrating to the US as being an example of multiculturalism is an absolute joke. I don't even know what to say. I'm just glad people like you make up a very small minority of people in the US.

[OzzyKP]

I'll just sum up your post with one word Ozzy, "relativism." Basically you think that the cultural differences of the past are no different than the cultural differences of today. Either you're completely ignorant of history and the cultures that dominated Europe over the past 2000 years, or you're intellectually dishonest. If you go back and look at the cultures over this time period you will see that they were all relatively the same, even if it is true that they may have seen each other as a different race or culture. The same can't be said of muslims and arabs immigrating to Europe now. Why do you think there were wars fought between Muslims and Christians in the first place throughout history? The gulf between Western Europeans today and Arabs is absolutely enormous compared to the small differences that earlier Europeans displayed. I have to remember who I'm dealing with here, but I'm amazed that you're even trying to make this argument. Arabs will never assimilate in Western European nations because their cultural identity runs so contrary to their adoptive nations. Your example of Irish Christians from a western European nation immigrating to the US as being an example of multiculturalism is an absolute joke. I don't even know what to say. I'm just glad people like you make up a very small minority of people in the US.

Oh, EoN...

You assert over and over that European cultures over the past 2,000 years were more or less the same. What objective standard to you appeal to? What proof do you offer? It seems to me that you are pulling something out of your ass and repeating it over and over and over again as if that makes it so. Its not. You're simply wrong.

Why do you think there were wars fought between Muslims and Christians in the first place throughout history? The gulf between Western Europeans today and Arabs is absolutely enormous compared to the small differences that earlier Europeans displayed.

Go ahead and tally up all the people killed in wars between Muslims and Christians throughout history and then tally up all the people killed in wars between western Europeans, then get back to me.

[rah]

What, currently 4.5% of the US population is Asian. Almost every major city in the US has a CHINA town where all the old traditions have been kept. Many of their residents never assimilated.
So saying that the US hasn't experienced the same thing is just plain silly. There are over a million Muslims in the US. While many assimilate, many don't bother.

[Monk]

Ozzy, you didn't miss my post, right? Other than that:

You assert over and over that European cultures over the past 2,000 years were more or less the same. What objective standard to you appeal to? What proof do you offer? It seems to me that you are pulling something out of your ass and repeating it over and over and over again as if that makes it so. Its not. You're simply wrong.

I can't speak for anybody but myself, but I don't think anybody is arguing European cultures are one and the same. What we're arguing is that there are common denominators for Western countries that Anatolia or Palestine or Somalia do not share. Christian background for one thing. Strong American influence is another. Language ties, there's one more. Historical background in general. Political structures. And the fact that we've lived through an age of enlightenment "together". Hell, on this very message board I'll wager that the Norwegians outnumber the Arabs or Africans or Pakistanis added up.

[Al B. Sure!]

Saxons used to hate Bavarians who used to hate Hannoverans who used to hate Prussians... Germany as a unified entity only dates to 1871. The freaking US is older than Germany

[Monk]

Saxons used to hate Bavarians who used to hate Hannoverans who used to hate Prussians... Germany as a unified entity only dates to 1871. The freaking US is older than Germany

Come on, man. Try to argue constructively with me, or anybody. And seriously, take this attempt at encouragement as a compliment, because I do think you should be able to do better than this.

[Al B. Sure!]

What, currently 4.5% of the US population is Asian. Almost every major city in the US has a CHINA town where all the old traditions have been kept. Many of their residents never assimilated.
So saying that the US hasn't experienced the same thing is just plain silly. There are over a million Muslims in the US. While many assimilate, many don't bother.

Yet are people getting their panties in a wad about Chinatown? Have you ever heard anyone say, "****ing chinks don't want to assimilate and be American. Want to stay in enclaves and think they can have Beijing in our red-blooded American cities!"?

[Al B. Sure!]

Come on, man. Try to argue constructively with me, or anybody. And seriously, take this attempt at encouragement as a compliment, because I do think you should be able to do better than this.

Your argument is as silly as how you take what I just said. You lump millions of INDIVIDUALS into a cultural group and demand that they be separate from your own because they are intrinsically incompatible and the division between cultures is not transient but ever-eternal and has always existed since time immemorial and there is no reconciliation so instead there must be, inevitably using your logic, deportations and separate bathrooms for the races, etc., yet somehow, that's okay?

[rah]

Yet are people getting their panties in a wad about Chinatown? Have you ever heard anyone say, "****ing chinks don't want to assimilate and be American. Want to stay in enclaves and think they can have Beijing in our red-blooded American cities!"?

That's my point. I think it shows we're more tolerant.

[BeBMan]

Hey, Alby, do I get a thread now about the German Head Of State saying "Islam belongs to Germany" recently?

[OzzyKP]

You missed my point. It doesn't matter what they thought. It matters what they were, namely different - but less different than they could have been.

Based on what? One could certainly make the argument that East Asian nations are far more different from Europeans than Muslims. We share common history with the Arabs & Turks, we share a monotheistic faith, we share geographical proximity and interaction. Rah just pointed out Chinatown, should we Americans be freaking about about this bizarre foreign Chinese culture invading our shores?

Because they're not Westerners and so we can't expect them to assimilate like Westerners generally do.

"Westerner" is an arbitrary term. It is absolutely meaningless. Many groups and people we consider western now we never did before. Since "non-westerners" assimilated in the past, there is no reason to suspect that this particular group of "non-westerners" won't follow suit. In this country no one thought the Irish would assimilate, they did. No one thought the Italians would assimilate, Jersey shore notwithstanding, they did. No one thinks Mexicans will assimilate, and believe it or not they currently are. Europeans say "well, Mexicans are still western, still Christian, they aren't that different." But the howls from anti-immigrant Americans about Mexicans are the same as the cries from Europeans about Muslims. You (like they) just believe your bigotry is somehow special, or different, or justified.

I certainly don't have a problem with your friends, I'm sure they're nice people. I have a problem with too much immigration from predominantly Muslim countries.

That's right. But Western European countries generally use the same alphabet, roughly the same grammatical structure and many words are similar. Are you actually expecting it wouldn't be substantially more difficult for you to learn Arabic than to learn Dutch? To say nothing of how much more estranged you'd feel if you were starting over in Arabia rather than The Netherlands? Then you get the point ...

I wasn't suggesting that you wouldn't like them, I was saying that they assimilate fine and that there is nothing inherent about Islam that makes Muslims incapable of assimilating.

Fine, Arabic is more challenging a language to learn than Dutch. But the reason immigrants learn or don't learn a language has nothing to do with how challenging it is. Despite the many influences between Spanish and English, "off the boat" Mexican immigrants generally don't learn the language. By and large though their kids speak perfect English no different than anyone else. Which is just how it worked with Italians and Chinese and every other group. If you are saying that Muslim immigrants, who assimilate fine in the United States, have a very big problem assimilating in Europe then my guess is the problem doesn't lie with the immigrants but the European countries they find themselves in.

[Monk]

Your argument is as silly as how you take what I just said. You lump millions of INDIVIDUALS into a cultural group and demand that they be separate from your own because they are intrinsically incompatible and the division between cultures is not transient but ever-eternal and has always existed since time immemorial and there is no reconciliation so instead there must be, inevitably using your logic, deportations and separate bathrooms for the races, etc., yet somehow, that's okay?

I don't think I said anything about ever-eternal divisions. I've said something general about some immigrants being easier to integrate/assimilate than others, but I've never claimed to say anything about individuals. I don't think I've said anything about separate bathrooms for the races either, I don't think I've even mentioned the concept of race.

What I will say though is that it's interesting to hear accusations about over-generalizing from the same person who chose "Germany never changes... German leader says multiculturalism has failed" as this very thread title.