Every Jew and Christian is going to hell.

[Al B. Sure!]

I keep saying that I'm not going to discuss religion with idiots. I don't know why I can't just stop. If you don't believe, then don't believe. Why are you mother****ers so concerned with turning believers into those that don't believe? Just screw off.

YHWH in the Old Testament was a horrible jealous and violent warlord.

[SlowwHand]

You're an idiot.

[Al B. Sure!]

You're an idiot.

Read your Bible. Seriously. Read everything that happens from Exodus on. It's insane. I don't believe Christians or Jews actually read that stuff because no way would they be religious if they actually did.

Take for example the Golden Calf incident. So much God-mandated bloodshed.

Consider, mind you Moses is up getting the commandments so the Hebrews have yet to be technically told to not worship graven images. When Moses sees the calf what happens? God tells those who stayed true, the sons of Levi, to slaughter everyone. Then those same sons of Levi who were true to God are forced to wander the desert in atonement.

26Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.

27And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

28And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

29For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves today to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.

30And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.

The OT is filled with many such incidents of God-mandated slaughter. Not to mention the fact that things like working on the Sabbath are punishable by death as per God's orders.

[SlowwHand]

I don't give a damn about the OT. I already made that clear. It's a historical. If you want to dwell on it, dwell on.

[Al B. Sure!]

I don't give a damn about the OT. I already made that clear. It's a historical. If you want to dwell on it, dwell on.

I find it funny how you reduce God to a historical phenomena and basically say like a beat woman, oh God changed. He's not the same anymore

Anyway this is all irrelevant. Jews are the ones whom the OT is relevant for. They're technically still supposed to be putting women to death for premarital sex and stuff. They don't believe in Jesus so they can't say Jesus changed the Word.

[SlowwHand]

He didn't change, moron. He sent Christ to show us what was meant and expected, because man was so stupid. Apparently not much has changed. What do you not get?
Irrelevant? As a starting point, read the ****ing topic title.
In any event, it's not up to MrFun about anyone's destiny. If you want to agree with him, feel free. Be a pompous ass fool. It matters little to me.

[Jon Miller]

Read your Bible. Seriously. Read everything that happens from Exodus on. It's insane. I don't believe Christians or Jews actually read that stuff because no way would they be religious if they actually did.

Take for example the Golden Calf incident. So much God-mandated bloodshed.

Consider, mind you Moses is up getting the commandments so the Hebrews have yet to be technically told to not worship graven images. When Moses sees the calf what happens? God tells those who stayed true, the sons of Levi, to slaughter everyone. Then those same sons of Levi who were true to God are forced to wander the desert in atonement.

I have read (most) of the OT, still read it, and think that it is a relevant part of the story of the relationship between God and man.

First, the son's of Levi didn't kill everyone. In fact, the son's of Levi were just a small part of the children of Israel after these events.

Second, the wandering in the wilderness for 40 years was due to coming to the land of Canaan and looking at the people/etc there and saying that it was impossible. That Israel could never get the promised land. Since the people said it was impossible, God gave the opportunity to their children (next generation) after they died.

Thirdly, Israel had been saved by God. They then worshiped a golden calf and said that it had provided for them, not God. This shouldn't need some special instruction! The 10 commandments were a codification of God's law which were provided to Israel. Most things in them (except arguably the 4th commandment, to keep the Sabbath holy) are ones which people should know to do.

Finally, that was a less civilized time. Now we give chances/etc, we look at situations, we rehabilitate. At the time people would go and kill someone else in vengeance, and a good/merciful law would be one that looked barbaric today. God gave instructions/laws that fit inside the time.

JM

[Al B. Sure!]

So God's a moral relativist now?

[Jon Miller]

No.

It is obvious that the question "What is right to do?" is complicated. Simple humans either over-simplify things or else say it is all relative.

But that is just because we are unable to understand it.

JM

[MOBIUS]

It's clear that ancient Israelis were really stupid (no change there!) if God had to repeatedly bash them over the head with things like the 10 commandments, punishing them with fiery death and sending his own son down to them to shout "here I am" just to have to keep proving to them he existed. A bit like doing cheap magic tricks to keep the kiddies entertained.

If he was so keen on proving he existed back then to a small bunch of uncivilised goat herders in one tiny part of the entire world, why is it that he has been so enigmatic and elusive in the 2,000 years since that nobody can agree on or decide what he even said or wanted them to do anymore!!? Surely we need him more than ever now?

[Jon Miller]

It wasn't that He existed. Most everyone, Jews included, were happy to believe in the existence of many gods. Thousands even.

It was believing in Him which was the issue. That He could take care of them, that they should trust and follow Him, this is what was the problem several thousand years ago and today.

The 'atheist' issue is a recent one (it wasn't rational more than a 100 years ago), believing in the existence of God is a recent issue.

JM

[MOBIUS]

Thing is, for the first few hundred years or so of belief in 'Him', he was in their faces all the time! It was like God was shouting "Look at me! Look at me!" to the early Israelites - he was an extremely hands on God in the early days - you don't flood the entire world or destroy cities with fireballs from the sky without people taking notice...

Now, since whenever, we haven't had a peep out of him, in fact all this bad **** keeps happening around the world and he doesn't even lift a finger to stop it...

There would have been tons of times for him to pop by and say "Hi, remember me?", even if he can't be bothered lifting a finger to prevent hundreds of thousands of people dying at a time in disasters around the world, you would have thought that he might have stepped in an mediated between the Catholic church and Martin Luther?

[Jon Miller]

At that time period they needed God to do explicit things, they believed the other gods did.

If we had a prophet/etc which God acted through now, so much focus would be on the mystical explicit things that God's purpose would be lost. Or at least this is what I think.

A few people becoming theists instead of atheists wouldn't mean that they believed in God. Not in the fashion of trusting in Him/etc.

JM

[Elok]

It's worth pointing out that Adam was perfectly aware of the existence of God. That was never the problem.

[Boris Godunov]

The 'atheist' issue is a recent one (it wasn't rational more than a 100 years ago),

Which just shows your ignorance of ancient Greek philosophers, not to mention many ancient Eastern philosophies that were atheistic. There wasn't anything "irrational" about them.

"In this subject of the nature of the gods the first question is: do the gods exist or do they not? It is difficult, you will say, to deny that they exist. I would agree, if we were arguing the matter in a public assembly, but in a private discussion of this kind it is perfectly easy to do so."--Cicero