I'm not sure one should dismiss God anymore

[MikeH]

Nope. When my body's dead, I'm dead. Not much I can do about that. *shrug*

[Heraclitus]

Nope. When my body's dead, I'm dead. Not much I can do about that. *shrug*

Do you think the universe is computable?


If so why would the destruction of your body be the destruction of you. Would not a hypothetical omniscient Omega be perfectly capable of implementing you on a different substrate.

[Ben Kenobi]

So I get to live in eternity either way? Win win.

This is why Hell exists, so that those who choose to live without him, get exactly what they want. Yeah, you will get an eternity without him if that's what you choose.

[Ben Kenobi]

I think Christians disagree on this, I think a theologian (presumably a heretic from my POV) once said "make no mistake a human soul is mortal, but by the grace of God its possible for the soul not to die."

No, there's no disagreement here. God could choose to extinguish someone's existance, but he chooses not to do so. Even those who go to hell will not perish.

[Heraclitus]

No, there's no disagreement here. God could choose to extinguish someone's existance, but he chooses not to do so. Even those who go to hell will not perish.

Are you sure? I was pretty sure there was some sect in the early centuries AD with this belief.

Edit: Annihilationism

The position makes little sense, but It is there.

[MikeH]

Do you think the universe is computable?

If so why would the destruction of your body be the destruction of you. Would not a hypothetical omniscient Omega be perfectly capable of implementing you on a different substrate.

Theoretically, I don't think so. I think the act of observing the electrical activity and neuron structure would probably be too destructive. My 'self' is an ever changing blend of half memory, training, instinct, hormones etc.

I think we know enough to know that omniscience and omnipotence aren't really possible.

[Heraclitus]

Remember I'm the guy that thinks patients that are preserved cryogenically have a shot at being restored to full health.


Also I think you missed the implications of my question if you think the universe is computable. To think about this right imagine you are running a universe on your universal turning machine and go from there, of course this is not a workaround of the apparently probabilistic nature of quantum physics but it has interesting implications.

[Ben Kenobi]

Are you sure? I was pretty sure there was some sect in the early centuries AD with this belief.

Yep, pretty positive, "fear the one who can destroy body and soul in hell". He could, but he chooses not to do so, hence we all have immortal souls from God. Quite right about the other sect, but they teach that your soul will be killed if you go to hell, and there is no eternal punishment.

[MikeH]

Remember I'm the guy that thinks patients that are preserved cryogenically have a shot at being restored to full health.


Also I think you missed the implications of my question if you think the universe is computable. To think about this right imagine you are running a universe on your universal turning machine and go from there, of course this is not a workaround of the apparently probabilistic nature of quantum physics but it has interesting implications.

You can compute bits of it, but we already know you can't know everything about the universe. As you say quantum physics shows us that's not possible. Which is mainly why I don't think anyone can be omniscient.

Full recovery from cryogenic freezing... maybe possible but I suspect we won't know the correct way to freeze until we know the way to unfreeze.

[Ben Kenobi]

Which is mainly why I don't think anyone can be omniscient.

What if time didn't exist and was an illusion?

[MikeH]

What if my face was cerise and kangaroos could jump to the moon?

[MOBIUS]

I think that's a very good idea. I've pointed it out before to these atheists. If they're right, so what? I'll never know. If I'm right, they have to deal with the consequences.

This is my basic problem with religion: What consequences? From whom?

Currently I am faced with the choice of hundreds of different religions which all basically say the same thing: If you are not a part of us, you will be punished for your mistake when you die.

Clearly with such a massively important decision to make, I have to be certain that I join the right religion, or else it will all be for nothing when I realise I've been following the wrong religion and end up going to hell or wherever. No religion right now seems to be more compelling to join than any other - should I simply join the one with the most members on the proviso that it is the mostly likely one to be the true religion? Perhaps they just have a better marketing strategy than the others?

What makes you think you have picked the correct religion and that you're not wasting your time with the wrong one?

(This is not a troll, but essentially goes to the heart of the reason why I am an atheist and no one has ever satisfactorily answered me as to why there are so many different religions, of different types, often teaching entirely different things - surely there can be only one if a divine being existed!?)

[MikeH]

What if time didn't exist and was an illusion?

Human perception of time is so limited that it could be considered an illusion.

[giblets]

Define 'nonbelief' and define 'punish'.
I think that your definition would indeed lead to your conclusion. ('find it hard to believe that....')
But I do not think that your definition is the christian definition, and most certainly not God's definition.

if 'nobelief' = 'I do not believe God exists'
and 'punish' = 'buwhahaah I will now do something that hurts you to make you pay'

then I would be an atheist right now. No, not an atheist but an anti-christian, because I would reject such a God, even if he would exist.

I'd say that christianity (or at least me myself) would define:
'nonbelief' = 'be my own god rather then let God be my god. I'm the one who makest he calls, not he.'
'punish' = 'as a conclusion to "my nonbelief" god decides that I'd better be not with God anymore, but placed in a place where God is not and where I can factually be my own god in my own place and environment. That the latter may not be a nice place is not the purpose but the result of being my own god while reject God's authority'

If you add to that that if God renews his creation and removes evil from it, that then it would not be good if God would place people in this re-created place that have decided they want to define 'evil' themselves, and thus run the risk to re-introduce 'evil' in this 'recreated' place again.

I think that makes sense from a righteous rational point of view.
The question that remains then is: does this God exist or not.

What is it with Christians and twisting words? Since when did "nonbelief" mean anything other than "not believing"????

[Jon Miller]

Are you sure? I was pretty sure there was some sect in the early centuries AD with this belief.

Edit: Annihilationism

The position makes little sense, but It is there.

My denomination is close to the Annihilationism.

JM