How does a 60+ hour work week look like?

[KrazyHorse]

How can someone with your supposed working experience be so clueless on the true nature of employment in America?

You act like the workers have all the cards.

My subordinates were interchangeable and easily replaceable. I was as well.

OMFG. And their employer wasn't, as well?

[KrazyHorse]

The EU is a perfect example of a supposedly mobile work force (most people could relocate to other areas where there are jobs) but in reality mobility is hugely hampered due to language, culture, and differences in qualifications even with the efforts at convergence with in the various EU states.

Who the **** has claimed that the EU is one big, happy labor market? The fact that labor mobility is far lower across national boundaries in the EU than across state boundaries in the US is a well-understood and oft-cited phenomenon.

The red herrings are really piling up here...

[Dauphin]

It's possible...

You'll notice I've not disagreed with what you've said, only with the relevance in certain circumstances.

[KrazyHorse]

The theoretical, moral and empirical statements necessary to demonstrate that placing hurdles in front of those wishing to negotiate a longer workweek with their employer is a bad idea are quite simple and robust:

1) Moral axiom: I have no preference to transfer wealth between individuals who are identical except in their personal labor supply curves
2) Theoretical statement: the only way to alter the negotiating position of individual workers is to change the supply or demand curves for substitutes to their labor
3) Empirical statement: the elasticity of labor demand is much higher than the elasticity of labor supply

[KrazyHorse]

You'll notice I've not disagreed with what you've said, only with the relevance in certain circumstances.

I agree that you have disputed the relevance of what I said. I don't understand why you dispute its relevance. The sequence of posts between Laz and HC appears to be quite clear in its implications...

[KrazyHorse]

Indeed. They are now LIMITED to 80-hours a week max, with a maximum of 30 hours continuous. It is unclear how many residency programs fudge those numbers, but mine tried to play it pretty straight.

Also, just for the record, while residents work 80 hrs/wk for anywhere from 3-9 years, depending on the residency, they are also getting paid barely above minimum wage.


Jesus ****, I'm glad that's over.

Min. wage is a bit of an exaggeration, to my understanding

call it 4000 hrs a year, and the 1st year residents I know are making 14-15$ an hour

[Cort Haus]

The model "classical economics is wrong" is particularly useless.

I don't believe anyone has claimed this here. However, like all models, classical economics is the map, not the territory. I'm fairly sure that Smith himself recognised that market distortions existed, and made the model slightly less than perfectly beautiful in reality. I think he also had some reservations about the social consequences of those distortions that he witnessed - ie, substantially favouring the owners of capital over the owners of labour. Others would later develop this idea.

3) Empirical statement: the elasticity of labor demand is much higher than the elasticity of labor supply

Well, exactly. I nearly posted this earlier, but couldn't quite be bothered. If we can all agree on this, the discussion is probably over.

[KrazyHorse]

I don't believe anyone has claimed this here.

I claim it, actually. I also claim that this in itself is an inappropriate argument to demonstrate almost anything at all about the desirability or even effect of a given policy.

The point is, if you (the general "you", not you) believe that there is some kind of REASON to think that the effects of the policy in question will be different than those I claimed, then you should provide precisely what effect you believe is at play (no, the idea that there is an "asymmetry" or that there is "exploitation" doesn't cut it, without a more specific model of these things) and you should provide some sort of empirical justification to demonstrate the existence and importance of this effect.

As I said, the empirical evidence I'm aware of (elasticities of labor supply and demand) actually seem to imply that the only way this policy can benefit those who have more of a disdain for long hours is at the expense of those who have less of one.

[Dinner]

Who the **** has claimed that the EU is one big, happy labor market? The fact that labor mobility is far lower across national boundaries in the EU than across state boundaries in the US is a well-understood and oft-cited phenomenon.

The red herrings are really piling up here...

You did at least indirectly. You said if workers don't like it they can get a different job to which I said some places don't have a competitive job market so their option is to take what is offered or move. Thus showing that the ability to move is limited by a number of real life factors seems key to disproving the idealistic utopian nonsense you've been shoveling. Real life doesn't work as you described in the majority of the cases and that's why we actually need labor laws.

[MikeH]

Who the **** has claimed that the EU is one big, happy labor market? The fact that labor mobility is far lower across national boundaries in the EU than across state boundaries in the US is a well-understood and oft-cited phenomenon.

The red herrings are really piling up here...

In fact, even within national boundaries we're a less mobile labour market than the states. For reasons people don't really understand. Possibly because so many places have such strong regional identities.

[DanS]

I think the reasons are well known and readily understood.

[Hauldren Collider]

In fact, even within national boundaries we're a less mobile labour market than the states. For reasons people don't really understand. Possibly because so many places have such strong regional identities.

There are plenty of places in the US with extremely strong regional identities. I don't think tourists see it as much because the really big cities/tourist cities have a lot of transplants.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

As I said, the empirical evidence I'm aware of (elasticities of labor supply and demand) actually seem to imply that the only way this policy can benefit those who have more of a disdain for long hours is at the expense of those who have less of one.

It's all about striking a balance.

[Fake Boris]

The theoretical, moral and empirical statements necessary to demonstrate that placing hurdles in front of those wishing to negotiate a longer workweek with their employer is a bad idea are quite simple and robust:

1) Moral axiom: I have no preference to transfer wealth between individuals who are identical except in their personal labor supply curves
2) Theoretical statement: the only way to alter the negotiating position of individual workers is to change the supply or demand curves for substitutes to their labor
3) Empirical statement: the elasticity of labor demand is much higher than the elasticity of labor supply

Consequences of (3):
-capital requires mobility, which it does get by law.
-restrictions on working hours can be an incentive for innovation and productivity

[jaxl75]

I worked some pretty long shifts for weeks at time. Its hard man, real hard cause it just wears on you. And then later you hear on TV that there are people out there that work 2-3 jobs and raise a family and I just don't get how they do it.