What is it with Catholic Priests?

[giblets]

Part of the punishment for serious crimes like felonies is disenfranchisement. It's all one parcel. Oddly, I don't see anyone arguing that we should permit felons to own weapons.

Clearly people believe that the 14th is more important than the 2nd.

Why punish them over the course of their entire life instead of getting it over with?

[Al B. Sure!]

Part of the punishment for serious crimes like felonies is disenfranchisement. It's all one parcel. Oddly, I don't see anyone arguing that we should permit felons to own weapons.

Clearly people believe that the 14th is more important than the 2nd.

EDIT:

State law determines the restoration of civil rights for a state conviction, not federal law. The civil rights restoration must incorporate the right to serve on a jury, the right to seek and hold public office, and the right to vote. Absent restoration of these rights federal recognition of the state restoration of rights exception will not apply.

Federal law contains another passage to be considered. If the restoring state includes the three rights above, then one must determine if state law in any way restricts the convicted felon’s rights to possess a weapon. If there is any state restriction on the felon’s right to have a weapon then the possession of any firearms by the convicted felon is federally illegal. This is true even if all other civil rights are restored.

In the end, federal restrictions on the possession of firearms by convicted felons are entirely dependent upon the restrictions imposed by the various states. If there is a state restriction on an individual’s gun possession as the result of a criminal conviction, then possession is a violation of federal law.

[Ben Kenobi]

IOW, you believe that felons should be enfranchised, but they should not possess guns.

I believe they should not be enfranchised, nor should they possess guns.

You say that states should be able to decide what to do with the 2nd, but cannot decide what to do with the 14th. This is contradictory.

If a state can deny a felon the right to own a gun, they can also deny them the right to vote.

[Ben Kenobi]

Why punish them over the course of their entire life instead of getting it over with?

So you believe they should be able to purchase a weapon when they get out of jail?

[Al B. Sure!]

More Re: restoration of gun rights to convicted felons:

Britt v. North Carolina

The Court of Appeals erred to the extent that it determined N.C.G.S. § 14-415.1
as amended in 2004, that makes it “unlawful for any person who has been convicted of a felony
to purchase, own, possess, or have in his custody, care, or control any firearm,” can be
constitutionally applied to plaintiff whose right to possess firearms was restored in 1987 by
operation of law after he completed his sentence for possession with intent to sell and deliver a
controlled substance without incident in 1982, and this case is remanded to the Court of Appeals
for further remand to the superior court for further proceedings not inconsistent with this opinion,
because: (1) no evidence was presented that would indicate plaintiff was dangerous or has ever
misused firearms, either before his crime or in the seventeen years between restoration of his
rights and adoption of N.C.G.S. § 14-415.1’s complete ban on any possession of a firearm by
him; (2) plaintiff sought out advice from his local sheriff following the amendment of N.C.G.S. §
14-415.1 and willingly gave up his weapons when informed that possession would presumably
violate the statute; (3) plaintiff, through his uncontested lifelong nonviolence toward other
citizens, his thirty years of law-abiding conduct since his crime, his seventeen years of
responsible, lawful firearm possession between 1987 and 2004, and his compliance with the
2004 amendment affirmatively demonstrated that he is not among the class of citizens who pose
a threat to public peace and safety; and (4) based on the facts of plaintiff’s crime, his long post-
conviction history of respect for the law, the absence of any evidence of violence by plaintiff, and
the lack of any exception or possible relief from the statute’s operation as applied to plaintiff, the
2004 version of N.C.G.S. § 14-451.1 is an unreasonable regulation not fairly related to the
preservation of public peace and safety. N.C. Const. art. I, § 30.

[Ben Kenobi]

Radioactive decay is deterministic on a macroscopic level.

But it is non-deterministic on a molecular level.

Just because a process has both deterministic and non-deterministic portions doesn't mean that we can't make predictions.

[Berzerker]

the hominid record is sufficient evidence of evolution for me

[Al B. Sure!]

I'm not saying what I believe, I'm just stating the facts. A convicted felon can have his gun rights restored under certain circumstances. But restoration of voting rights to an individual is required by federal law before a state can restore gun rights to that same individual. That's just the facts of the law as it stands right now.

[Ben Kenobi]

plaintiff, through his uncontested lifelong nonviolence toward other
citizens, his thirty years of law-abiding conduct since his crime, his seventeen years of
responsible, lawful firearm possession between 1987 and 2004, and his compliance with the
2004 amendment affirmatively demonstrated that he is not among the class of citizens who pose
a threat to public peace and safety;

So, IOW, the right is not absolute. If the plaintiff were adjudged to believe in the use of guns in self defense, he would be denied access to firearms?

[Joseph]

I'm also split on whether public employees should be permitted to have criminal records either.

You are right that rehabilitation is an important goal of the prison system, but it isn't the only goal. What about restitution?

Since I worked for the US Gov, DOD, Mare Island Naval Shipyard. If you had a criminal record prior to employment, There was a very good chance, you would not be hired.
I work for a few weeks at our employment office and we sent a letter to each new hire, City Police Dept, The Sheriff Dept, State Police and former Employer. Also we used the NIS, and the FBI to check someone out. Now remember, this was for DOD jobs and it may be different for other US Gov jobs.

[giblets]

But it is non-deterministic on a molecular level.

Just because a process has both deterministic and non-deterministic portions doesn't mean that we can't make predictions.

WTF? The predictions are going to involve the deterministic portion, aren't they? I don't see how non-deterministic behaviors on a molecular level can be predicted.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm not saying what I believe, I'm just stating the facts. A convicted felon can have his gun rights restored under certain circumstances. But restoration of voting rights is required by federal law before a state can restore gun rights. That's just the facts of the law as it stands right now.

Again, this confirms what I was arguing that people believe the 14th is superior to the 2nd when there is no such reason to make the distinction.

Why should access to a firearm be determined by the franchise?

If a state can deny access to a firearm to a felon, then they can also deny the franchise. That much is clear.

[Al B. Sure!]

Since I worked for the US Gov, DOD, Mare Island Naval Shipyard. If you had a criminal record prior to employment, There was a very good chance, you would not be hired.
I work for a few weeks at our employment office and we sent a letter to each new hire, City Police Dept, The Sheriff Dept, State Police and former Employer. Also we used the NIS, and the FBI to check someone out. Now remember, this was for DOD jobs and it may be different for other US Gov jobs.

You can join the US Army with a felony conviction. It requires a waiver but it's doable.

Note that, Ben... you can have federal employment and get your hands on an M16A4 with a felony conviction by joining the Army!

outdated but...

The number of felony waivers granted by the Army grew from 411 in 2003 to 901 in 2006, according to the Pentagon, or about one in 10 of the moral waivers approved that year.

[Ben Kenobi]

WTF? The predictions are going to involve the deterministic portion, aren't they? I don't see how non-deterministic behaviors on a molecular level can be predicted.

That's what statistical mechanics is all about. Right now, evolutionists cannot predict what happens at the macro level. This means that there are serious gaps in their understanding of evolution.

[giblets]

Who's arguing the states can't deny felons the right to vote? The argument was that it's stupid to deny them the right to vote after their prison term ends.