Is anyone here unfortunate enough to be an Asian American?

[Heraclitus]

I've lost patience with you're worthless responses, don't expect me to read or respond to you further.

[DaShi]

Aw, and after how I've been kind enough to keep up with your nonsense thus far.

[Heraclitus]

Without the ability to analyze people's genes, what are you basing your belief that arabs are dumber on average on?

Lower IQ isn't exactly the same as dumber. People are sometimes called dumb when they lack people skills, there are also other things that fall under "dumb" that aren't really measured by IQ. For example Blacks slightly outperform on the job compared to what is predicted on IQ alone, which isn't true for Whites and East Asians.


I'm basing a lower mean IQ on these two things:

-On average children of Arab Immigrants to devloped countries regress to the same mean that children in their parents native population do. Which is lower than the mean to which Asian, Jewish and Gentile (US) White IQs regress to.

- Direct comparissions between countries once adjusted for SES.


There is lots of variation in "Arabs" though. Sudanese or Yemenite "Arabs" regress to a completley different mean than say Christian Arabs from Lebanon or Arabs from Algeria. They are however nearly all below 100 (but the higher ones reach the "dumber" White countries like Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Slovenia, ect.)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...king_world.svg

Calling someone Arab isn't really saying someone belongs to this or that race. Just like calling somone Americans isn't calling them White.

However. If someone is a English speaker from Jamaica one can safley assume he is probably mostly of African extraction (despite other minorities), the same is true of the US. About 70% of Americans are plain Non-Hispanics Whites and I've heard estiamtes that around 1/3 to 2/3 of Hispanics classify as Whites. And even African Americans average 20% White admixture.

[Heraclitus]

Also the people from the Bejing Genetics insitute that are doing the study of gifted Chinese school children have stated they expect to be able to use their data to map some of the IQ genes variation among different populations. This won't allow for simple IQ calculations because other genes exist in other populations, and even genes that might raise the IQ of a Chinaman might make a Askenazi less inteligent, ect. But it will prove recent selective pressures.

Once that is proven the last refuge of the perfect equalists is proving that selection for inteligence was exactly the same all over the world.

Ooops. That won't exactly work since these populations differed in size and interconectedness.

No they will have to prove that selection for inteligence differed around the world exactly to the extent that it made up for the differences in population size and distribution in way that all races/nationalities/populations today have roughly the same mean genotypical IQ and distributions. This could be proven by doing similar studies (as the Chinese one) on other populations.

But am I the only who finds this unlikley?

[giblets]

Lower IQ isn't exactly the same as dumber. People are sometimes called dumb when they lack people skills, there are also other things that fall under "dumb" that aren't really measured by IQ. For example Blacks slightly outperform on the job compared to what is predicted on IQ alone, which isn't true for Whites and East Asians.

If black people do better than what IQ would suggest, doesn't that suggest that IQ tests underrate their intelligence?

-On average children of Arab Immigrants to devloped countries regress to the same mean that children in their parents native population do. Which is lower than the mean to which Asian, Jewish and Gentile (US) White IQs regress to.

Could you give some examples of these studies?

- Direct comparissions between countries once adjusted for SES.

What is SES?

Also, since intelligence already makes people more successful why do they need additional government subsidies?

[Heraclitus]

What is SES?

Socio economic status.

If black people do better than what IQ would suggest, doesn't that suggest that IQ tests underrate their intelligence?

Perhaps. Job performance depends on more than inteligence. I'm however more than willing to ascribe the slight outperformance to a higher than measured inteligence, since it dosen't change my basic premise.

Black African IQ is uncertain as it is because its not known how much the 20% White admixture affects African American IQs (which are a good 10 to 15 points higher than even devloped Black nations like Jamaica reach). It is however clear that its much lower than most other populations with the exception of populations like Australian Aboriginals, African Khosians and perhaps Negritos.

Could you give some examples of these studies?

They are not hard to hunt down. I don't have a link saved right away, I'll perhaps post a few later. Here is an example of black IQ by parental SES. Because of high Black admixture in the Arabian penisula and in North Africa this provides a reasonable temporary proxy for a regression towards a lower average IQ (compared to Whites and Asians) in many Arab states.

BTW SES correlates with IQ. So high parental SES translates on average to higher parental IQ.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...S-withDiff.png

Original source for the graph is given as:
Reviewed in Neisser et al. (1996). Data from the NLSY as reported in figure adapted from Herrnstein and Murray (1994), p. 288.

Also:

Jensen (1973, pp. 107–119) tested the regression predictions with data from siblings (900 White sibling pairs and 500 Black sibling pairs). These provide an even better test than parent– offspring comparisons because siblings share very similar environments. Black and White children matched for IQ had siblings who had regressed approximately halfway to their respective population means rather than to the mean of the combined population. For example, when Black children and White children were matched with IQs of 120, the siblings of Black children averaged close to 100, whereas the siblings of White children averaged close to 110. A reverse effect was found with children matched at the lower end of the IQ scale. When Black children and White children are matched for IQs of 70, the siblings of the Black children averaged about 78, whereas the siblings of the White children averaged about 85. The regression line showed no significant departure from linearity throughout the range of IQ from 50 to 150, as predicted by genetic theory but not by culture-only theory.

[Heraclitus]

As to recent SubSaharan admixture in Arabs http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/10/138

A proportion of 1/4 to 1/2 of North African female pool is made of typical sub-Saharan lineages, in higher frequencies as geographic proximity to sub-Saharan Africa increases.

The recent bit is important. Over time selection pressures can completley undue correlations between admixture from various groups and IQ. And anyway old stable endogamus populations with fixed ratios of admixture basically become "new" populations over time.

[giblets]

How effective are government subsidies in making people have more children? Since intelligence tends to make people more successful, I'm guessing intelligent people tend to be financially secure, so if they want kids financial concerns aren't going to prevent it. How much in money, on average, does it take for someone who wasn't interested in having kids to become interested? How much money would the government be dishing out for each additional smart baby?

[Heraclitus]

How effective are government subsidies in making people have more children? Since intelligence tends to make people more successful, I'm guessing intelligent people tend to be financially secure, so if they want kids financial concerns aren't going to prevent it. How much in money, on average, does it take for someone who wasn't interested in having kids to become interested? How much money would the government be dishing out for each additional smart baby?

You have a good point. However you understand support too narrowly.

Tax breaks can be motivatiors for marriage, why not children? Also tax breaks for employers who employ women during their maternity leave have made a difference in hiring and promoting practicies in countries where such measures exist.

If children increase your chances of getting your dream job or fulfilling your ambitions, perhaps even getting into a elite college, I'm pretty sure even well off people will take the time to have children.

Also at the end of the day there are many poor but inteligent individuals, for them this would be motivational. And doing something that produces a measurable effect is doing better than nothing.


And don't forget I'm not nesecarilly talking goverment here. Charities could also pick up the slack.

While negative eugenics is a slippery slope and I don't usually support it, I think I however should mention that there already exist charities that give cash to drug addicts so that they get sterilized.

[Al B. Sure!]

Hera:

I'm concerned with your usage of IQ as a proxy for intelligence. I understand you might refer to IQ being positive correlated with other productive things so that gives it worth but I think certain facts that you claim should give you more pause concerning IQ tests.

Think about it: If Blacks outperform their IQ's and certain specific countries have around the same IQ's (Middle Eastern, Greece, Portugal, Slovenia, probably Latin America; how do Lithuania, Latvia, Ukraine, Belarus, etc relate? Are they about the same as the Mediterranean? Is Italy higher than the other Mediterranean countries?), I would begin to question the IQ test and say that general population-wide success on it has more to do with cultural, educational, and social differences than intelligence. Do you think it's an accident that 2nd rate countries like Greece, Portugal, Lebanon, etc. all have around the same IQ's? Could it be that the fact that they are 2nd rate is why their people are 'dumber' than Germans? Isn't there a strong correlation between prenatal care and nutrition with intelligence?

What do you suppose happens when a typical Lebanese comes to the US or Northern Europe? If you have a hypothetical average 85 IQ or whatever it is for Lebanon, Lebanese couple, their children or grandchildren regress to which mean, Hera? Lebanon's 85 mean (or whatever it is) or the US's 100 mean?

[Az]

ahahahahaha kill yourself Hera, you piece of ****. Stop obsessing about race or stop posting goddamnit you stupid ****

[Heraclitus]

Hera:

I'm concerned with your usage of IQ as a proxy for intelligence. I understand you might refer to IQ being positive correlated with other productive things so that gives it worth but I think certain facts that you claim should give you more pause concerning IQ tests.

I'm arguing selecting for IQ would have positive effects on everyone's wellbeing. I may coloquially sometime mislabel it inteligence, thought if you read my recent posts I explain its not exactly the same thing. (though I need to challenge you, most psychometricians accept IQ as a usefull proxy for inteligence)

Lebanon's 85 mean (or whatever it is) or the US's 100 mean?

Lebanon's. Adjusted for Flynn effect of course (makes it a bit higher than expected since the Flynn effect hasn't been confirmed to have ended in Lebanon).


Also Lynn's estimate for Lebanon (86) is almost certainly wrong. Considering all the Carlos Slims that come from them, I'm willing to bet they are at least on Turkey's level, which means they are comparable to places like Ireland.

If there is any selection at all for economic well being (lets say their IQ gets in the 110+ range) when it comes to immigrants from Lebanon they would IQ-wise fit right in most European nations (their kids wouldn't do worse than a random native European kid).

[Heraclitus]

ahahahahaha kill yourself Hera, you piece of ****. Stop obsessing about race or stop posting goddamnit you stupid ****

Actually you are right. I'm going to request a ban for myself.

[Al B. Sure!]

I'm not buying it, Hera.

How does Moldova or other poor Eastern European countries which are economically and socially probably similar to the Mediterranean countries, compare with IQ? Do northern Italians who I imagine are much richer and have a better educational infrastructure fare much better than the rest of the Mediterranean brethren? If Germany was as poor as Iraq and Iraq was as rich as Germany, their education systems were swapped, etc., would the Iraqis have 105 IQs and Germans have 80 IQ's?

And why the change over the centuries? Arguably, the Mediterranean world was the most intellectually accomplished area on the planet until about the 18th century... granted, rare individuals in ideal circumstances may have motivated everything, but whether you're talking about the ziggurats at Ur, the philosophy of Plato, the Roman aqueducts, the invention of algebra, or the works of Michaelangelo, the Mediterranean world surely has in the past averaged a higher IQ than the rest of the planet. Why the down-turn?

[Heraclitus]

Why oh why would mean IQs change over time. Its almost like humans where somehow capable of changing as a species like animals under domestication. But who would be doing the selecting? If only there was something like a kind of natural explanation that would explain this. Some kind of natural selection? Alas tis can not be so since all animals are but unperfect replicas of Platonic forms!

Haven't you heard my Askenazi Medeival IQ selection rant? Haven't you heard about the drop in skull sizes over the past 10k+ years? What about the spread of lactose tolerance or malaria resistant genes? What about the 10k explosion and A farwell to Alms?

Also Italy's average IQ is 102 according to Lynn.