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  • Scouts win!



    PHILADELPHIA - June 23, 2010 -- The city of Philadelphia cannot evict a local Boy Scouts chapter from a city-owned building for refusing to admit gays, a federal jury ruled Wednesday.

    The city had insisted that nonprofits given free use of its property must abide by local anti-discrimination laws, which include equal protection for gays. But the jury found the city's reason violated the local scout council's First Amendment rights.

    "We do hope that eventually national (Boy Scouts of America) will change its minds. But at this point, the Cradle of Liberty (Council) is still obligated to follow its policy," said foreman Merrill Arbogast, 40, of Reinholds, a trucker and former Eagle Scout.

    In their lawsuit, the scouts had sought an injunction barring the city from evicting them, or charging $200,000 a year in rent, on their stately Beaux Arts headquarters building.

    While the verdict gives weight to their request, the judge did not immediately issue the ban. Instead, he told jurors the city's anti-discrimination policy is "principled" and said he hoped the two "honorable institutions" could work something out.

    "The city defended this suit in a very principled way, in an area of the law that is highly nuanced - Constitutional Law - and highly unpredictable," U.S. District Judge Ronald L. Buckwalter told jurors after the verdict.

    In his view, he said, the city can still terminate the lease under the 1928 agreement, which was designed to give nonprofits free rent if they maintained the sites. However, the city must terminate the lease for a legally permissible reason, not because of an organization's views.

    "From now on, the Boy Scouts will be negotiating from a position of strength," said lawyer Jason Gosselin, who represents the scouts. "The city can't come in and impose its views on what the scouts ought to do."

    He hopes negotiations with the city will resume. The city was reviewing its legal options.

    "While the good work of the Boy Scouts cannot be disputed, the city remains steadfast in its commitment to prevent its facilities from being used to disadvantage certain groups," the city said in a statement.

    The eight-day trial followed a decade of sometimes heated discussions stemming from a 2000 Supreme Court decision that said the Boy Scouts, as a private group, can exclude gays from membership. Some public and private donors around the country withdrew support.

    In Philadelphia, the Cradle of Liberty Council tried to walk a fine line between appeasing the city, the United Way and other supporters and the Irving, Texas-based Boy Scouts of America.

    In 2003, it enacted its own nondiscrimination policy but was forced to retrench when the Boy Scouts of America ordered it to conform with national rules. The chapter later enacted a statement that says it doesn't tolerate illegal discrimination.

    "We felt that they were between a rock and a hard place," said Arbogast, the jury foreman.

    There has been just one known case of a gay scout being ousted from the Philadelphia chapter, although the city argued that many more may be scared off by the national policy.

    Greg Lattera, 25, testified that scouting meant the world to him as an inner-city child. He said he did not intend to become a flag bearer for gay rights when he spoke about being gay while wearing his scout uniform in a TV news interview.

    "We felt he was used, a pawn for certain groups' agenda," Arbogast said.
    Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
    "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
    2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

  • #2
    Ban Ben for deliberately spamming this forum by posting this in a new thread.

    And WTF is a former Eagle Scout doing serving as the ****ing JURY FOREMAN? What a ridiculous concept.

    Have a feeling this will be appealed. It's also reassuring the judge affirms that the city CAN evict the Scouts.
    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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    • #3
      Well it is news.
      Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
      "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
      2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
        Well it is news.
        It's news directly related to a topic we already have a thread on specifically.
        "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
        Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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        • #5
          The drag queens of Philadelphia should camp out around the building and block access to it.

          On city property, but not in the building.
          "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
          Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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          • #6


            Guess the CLC can just sit back and collect that eight-figure check for the building now. Slam dunk, right, Ben?
            Solomwi is very wise. - Imran Siddiqui

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            • #7
              Now BK has something to masturbate about later tonight.
              A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.

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              • #8
                Guess the CLC can just sit back and collect that eight-figure check for the building now. Slam dunk, right, Ben?
                That was only in the case that they were evicted. Didn't you say that this was totally going to go against the Scouts?
                Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                Comment


                • #9
                  If plomp wants to merge it fine.

                  The drag queens of Philadelphia should camp out around the building and block access to it.
                  I think this is totally the way to go.
                  Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                  "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                  2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
                    That was only in the case that they were evicted. Didn't you say that this was totally going to go against the Scouts?
                    No. I never said anything about how it would go at trial, since it's not surprising to see a jury get a constitutional issue wrong. It's almost as unsurprising as seeing you still convinced they'd be entitled to compensation for the building under any circumstances. The characterization of the original agreement in this article differs a bit from the only decent characterization we had in the last thread, but still recognizes that the Scouts had no title in the building to transfer to the city. Whether the consideration given by the city is free rent or permission to build, the quid pro quo from the Scouts is still maintaining the city's building.

                    The jury went against the Scouts on due process and equal protection, and on the nonpublic forum First Amendment claim, btw. The "unconstitutional condition" argument is their last leg, and I don't really expect it to survive the appeals process, especially in light of this nugget: "Under the ordinance that leased the property to the scouts, the city has the right to evict them without giving any reason at all, both sides have agreed." Check FAIR II for the precedent (basically, if the government can take the benefit for no reason at all, it doesn't really matter what the actual reason is).
                    Solomwi is very wise. - Imran Siddiqui

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                    • #11
                      Wow, so you were wrong and you still persist?

                      Juries.
                      Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                      "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                      2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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                      • #12
                        Ben, there's an appeal process for a reason.

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                        • #13
                          Ben, while you undoubtedly like the result, you can't deny that juries are generally made up of the same retards who make up the general population. In other words, ignorant of the law and the Constitution.
                          Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
                          Read my seldom updated blog where I talk to myself: http://davedadouche.blogspot.com/

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by David Floyd View Post
                            Ben, while you undoubtedly like the result, you can't deny that juries are generally made up of the same retards who make up the general population. In other words, ignorant of the law and the Constitution.
                            QFT

                            I haven't followed this and have mixed feelings on it.

                            On the one hand if the Scouts have a constitutional right they should not have contracts terminated by reason of exercising that right. I think most people would agree with that.

                            But here, if I understand the facts, the city can terminate their lease at any time so I wonder where the city lost that right? Are they bound to any particular additional duties to groups to which they lease?

                            Because absent some other duties, the city should be able to get its building back whenever it wants.


                            AS an aside, how does a childrens organization ban gays-- Is it just from their leadership? because any number of those pre-teen and teenage boys will eventually discover their own sexual identity. Some will no doubt identify as gay or bisexual, in some cases BECAUSE of their activities on Scout camping trips (ah the irony)
                            Last edited by Flubber; June 29, 2010, 17:42.
                            You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

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                            • #15
                              My younger brother was a gay boy scout.
                              "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
                              "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

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