Christianity ruins families.

[MrFun]

It does matter, because you are arguing that the Hawaiian monarchy represented the people of Hawaii better than representative democracy.

Native americans killing settlers, and then the US Army stepping in to protect them.

What about Stand Watie, Mr. Fun? Native Americans aren't a monolith.

1) I'm not arguing that the Hawaiian monarchy was representative of all native Hawaiins. Again, you are either so dense that you did not understand my point, or you are deliberately distoriting my point.

2) I'm not arguing that Native Americans were/are a monolithic group. I'm well aware of the diversity of Native Americans from what I have learned over the years. Once again, you're either hopelessly dense or a compulsive liar.

And the fact that you think Native Americans did not act in self defense and that the conflicts were purely about U.S. military coming to help protect non-violent, hapless settlers is laughable. And no, I'm not saying that white settlers never suffered atrocities from Native Americans - that's not my point here.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben should shut up about subjects he doesn't know anything about.

Does that map list Apache/Comanche conflicts?

How about Apache vs Mexico or Comanche vs. Mexico?

Or was it just USA vs the world?

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm talking about Hawaii as a new territory in 1890s, you idiot; not when they voted to become the fiftieth state in mid-twentieth century. What happened in 1890s was U.S. Marines forced the Hawaiian monarchy to "accept" U.S. annexation as a territory. The fact that they gained independence only decades later is beside the point

It does matter, because you are arguing that the Hawaiian monarchy represented the people of Hawaii better than representative democracy.

What were the nineteenth century wars and conflicts between Native Americans and U.S. settlers and military forces about?

Native americans killing settlers, and then the US Army stepping in to protect them.

What about Stand Watie, Mr. Fun? Native Americans aren't a monolith.

[MrFun]

What this means is that the French/British/Spanish/Russians were the conquerers, not the Americans, who purchased the land.



Hawaiians themselves when they had the vote overwhelmingly voted to become a US state. They were given the option to leave, and unlike Puerto Rico, chose not only to stay, but to adopt closer relations.



The questions you raise about the US also apply to Mexico. Mexico was a colony of Spain, just as the US was a colony of Britain. They won their independence in the same way. Alta California and Neuvo Mexico had territorial status under the Mexican constitution, meaning that they were too thinly populated to be considered a true province. This is different from Coahila y Texas, which broke away, with Coahila losing, but Texas succeeding.



And they are now fully independent. Same as with Cuba. Puerto Rico has been offered a choice of leaving or staying, and have voted to stay.

In terms of conquest, the Americans have never conquered any territory from the native inhabitants, only from colonial intermediaries.

I'm talking about Hawaii as a new territory in 1890s, you idiot; not when they voted to become the fiftieth state in mid-twentieth century. What happened in 1890s was U.S. Marines forced the Hawaiian monarchy to "accept" U.S. annexation as a territory. The fact that they gained independence only decades later is beside the point.

The Europeans were the first conquerors of Native Americans, and then later, Americans (of European descent) became the second conquerors of Native Americans. What were the nineteenth century wars and conflicts between Native Americans and U.S. settlers and military forces about?

**** it - you're hopeless.

[giblets]

Ben should shut up about subjects he doesn't know anything about.
This would be a good start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Wars

Spoiler:

[Ben Kenobi]

What, you think we didn't kill any squatters? Of round them up and put them on reservations? (all the ****ty land)

No, but smallpox from the Spanish killed 90 percent of them. So if your argument is that you cleared out most of the Natives, I'd have to disagree.

[Ben Kenobi]

AT THE TIME, the Native Americans viewed the US as a liberating nation is preposterous.

They didn't. Neither did they view the Spanish, the French, the Russians, or the British as liberators.

And definitely not each other.

All I am arguing is that many preferred the US to each other, or to the Spanish, French and Russians. Enough so that they were willing to fight for America.

[rah]

I think the Spanish beat you to that.

What, you think we didn't kill any squatters? Of round them up and put them on reservations? (all the ****ty land)

[David Floyd]

If the Spanish beat us to it, why did the US Army have to pacify the region?

[Ben Kenobi]

Since we were the one that cleared out/killed all the annoying squatters, I think we qualify as the conquerers.

I think the Spanish beat you to that.

[Ben Kenobi]

Native Americans still had de facto control of most of the lands that the Europeans claimed to own.

Pretty broad statement. Not by the time when the Americans purchased it. This wasn't the case in Oregon. Nor was it the case in the North West, where the British had owned and controlled the Ohio valley for a considerable period. Louisiana is a bit of a special case. It was owned by Spain prior to sale to France.

And what was controlled by Europeans had been taken by force, so how, exactly, did the British, Spanish, and French have the right to sell it? Can I kill you and take your stuff because I paid someone else for it? If Asher claimed to own your possessions, giving him $100 for them would make them mine? That's retarded.

Would you be arrested for theft because you purchased these goods? No. Asher is the one responsible. This is all I am arguing.

And rebelling is taking something by force. If Mexico was trying to take Texas by force, then the US took the entire confederacy by force... you're not exactly helping your case there.

Rebelling is not the same as taking a land by force. Rebelling implies that the inhabitants of the area rebel against their colonial powers. Britain owned the 13 colonies.

Sheesh, by your logic the Seljuk Turks didn't take the holy land from Christians, so Christians had no right to take it from them. Self-defeating arguments ftw!

Except that they took Constantinople. The argument would have more merit if the Seljuks were Allied with the Christians, but that's not the case. Same with the Ottomans.

[rah]

What this means is that the French/British/Spanish/Russians were the conquerers, not the Americans, who purchased the land.

Since we were the one that cleared out/killed all the annoying squatters, I think we qualify as the conquerers.

[David Floyd]

Most native americans want the best of both worlds. They want to have all the protections of american laws, but none of the responsibilities. Some are happy to be Americans, and consider themselves to be American more than anything else.

Native americans are just like the rest of us, David. They are not a monolith.

More misdirection. Now you are talking about Native Americans in 2010. Before, you were talking about Native Americans you claim to have been liberated by the United States. I agree that we shouldn't federally subsidize Indian reservations, but to say that AT THE TIME, the Native Americans viewed the US as a liberating nation is preposterous.

[David Floyd]

That is disingenuously true, but it's also true that the Americans did a pretty good job of putting down the Native Americans in lands they purchased or annexed. See, e.g., the Seminoles in Florida.

Note that I also think that the world as a whole and the Native Americans themselves are far better off today because of the United States than they would be without the United States. You are just making a ridiculous argument.

[Ben Kenobi]

You're misdirecting again. You claimed that the US liberated the Native Americans. I pointed out that most Native Americans would likely disagree. You responded with the above. Huh?

Most native americans want the best of both worlds. They want to have all the protections of american laws, but none of the responsibilities. Some are happy to be Americans, and consider themselves to be American more than anything else.

Native americans are just like the rest of us, David. They are not a monolith.