Ships to Gaza incident

[Kuciwalker]

The definition there is exactly what I said. Neutral nations would be "everyone but Israel" (since they aren't at war with anyone, there are no belligerents).

[Asher]

The definition there is exactly what I said. Neutral nations would be "everyone but Israel" (since they aren't at war with anyone, there are no belligerents).

You live on another planet right now, dude. It's not exactly what you said.

For someone so pedantic you have a real problem missing the big picture.

[Al B. Sure!]

Kuci:

The commandos firing on the people isn't really blame-worthy itself because given the situation, the commandos took the appropriate action. I haven't seen anyone here say otherwise. Perhaps they should have shot them to incapacitate but then that could potentially open up a whole new can of worms if someone incapacitated died of their wounds (ie- issues of intent vs. the flexibility and choice implied by incapacitation shots rather than fatal shots which are much easier to execute given a chaotic situation; in some cases, it looks better in courts to shoot to kill than shoot to incapacitate).

[Kuciwalker]

It wasn't destined for an Israeli port, Kuci.

Gaza is de facto Israeli territory, and you yourself have acknowledged that you'd consider it legal had Israel made the stop within territorial waters.

And the right of free navigation IS infringed when Israeli commandos drop on board and shoot people up to prevent it from FREELY NAVIGATING to its destination.

The right of free navigation does not include the right to enter a country's territory without its consent.

[Al B. Sure!]

Edit

[Kuciwalker]

For someone so pedantic you have a real problem missing the big picture.

You're the one complaining about an immaterial violation of the letter of the law when the real problem is that Israel killed 9 people.

[Asher]

Gaza is de facto Israeli territory, and you yourself have acknowledged that you'd consider it legal had Israel made the stop within territorial waters.

Gaza is not Israeli territory, by law or otherwise. Why would they blockade their own territory?

The right of free navigation does not include the right to enter a country's territory without its consent.

They had not entered the country's territory.

[Kuciwalker]

Kuci:

The commandos firing on the people isn't really blame-worthy itself because given the situation, the commandos took the appropriate action. I haven't seen anyone here say otherwise. Perhaps they should have shot them to incapacitate but then that could potentially open up a whole new can of worms if someone incapacitated died of their wounds (ie- issues of intent vs. the flexibility and choice implied by incapacitation shots rather than fatal shots which are much easier to execute given a chaotic situation; in some cases, it looks better in courts to shoot to kill than shoot to incapacitate).

I'm perfectly open to the idea that the commandos themselves acted appropriately, but it appears that they had to open fire because they had bad expectations of the ship's behavior. Israel probably could have done better. Additionally, the propriety of the blockade itself is in some doubt, given the economic distress it (intentionally) inflicts on the Palestinian people. No blockade and the people would not have died.

[Asher]

You're the one complaining about an immaterial violation of the letter of the law when the real problem is that Israel killed 9 people.

I'm complaining about two things:

1) Israel boarding a neutral ship in international waters
2) Israel deciding the best way to board the ship is to do so at night, with commandos with nightvision dropping on top of people via helicopter

The fact that you don't think it matters that they did this in international waters is your own problem. It's not a valid argument that you simply don't think it matters.

[Kuciwalker]

Gaza is not Israeli territory, by law or otherwise. Why would they blockade their own territory?

As a purely legal matter the status of the Palestinian territories is unresolved. As a practical matter they are suzerain Israeli territory. The Palestinian Authority is not a state and cannot have sovereignty; changing that fact is the entire purpose of the oft-discussed two-state solution.

They had not entered the country's territory.

Correct. The relevant point is that they were going to, and had declared their intentions to do so. Unless you really suspect they would have stopped at the edge of Israeli waters and turned around, the material outcome is the same as if Israel had waited just a little while longer.

[Kuciwalker]

I'm complaining about two things:

1) Israel boarding a neutral ship in international waters
2) Israel deciding the best way to board the ship is to do so at night, with commandos with nightvision dropping on top of people via helicopter

The fact that you don't think it matters that they did this in international waters is your own problem. It's not a valid argument that you simply don't think it matters.

Which is why I haven't made that argument; I've pointed out that while this is a violation of the letter of the law, it is not a violation of the spirit, and no material harm came from the actual violation. So, yes, you're a tool if, given all that, you still think it matters. You're also far more pedantic than I'd ever be if you do.

[Hauldren Collider]

It wasn't destined for an Israeli port, Kuci.

And the right of free navigation IS infringed when Israeli commandos drop on board and shoot people up to prevent it from FREELY NAVIGATING to its destination.

Yes it IS an Israeli port, Gaza is an autonomous zone within Israel's territory, not an independent nation. You are consistently showing absolutely no knowledge of basic details.

[Asher]

Yes it IS an Israeli port, Gaza is an autonomous zone within Israel's territory, not an independent nation. You are consistently showing absolutely no knowledge of basic details.

I'm demonstrating that I know more than just the party line for Israel/USA.

It is a city of the Palestinian Territories.

You appear to be under the assumption that everyone assumes it is an Israeli area. That is not the case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza

Where does it say it's an Israeli territory?

[Asher]

See, this is the problem. So many Americans (and especially Jewish Americans) buy wholesale into Israel's party line.

Israel claims Gaza is theirs. If that's true, then why have they pulled all of their soldiers and other police out of the area and why do they blockade goods from entering?

Is everyone here stupid?

[MOBIUS]

Of course, we've only been shown the footage that Israel wanted us to see - not the before and the after...


The hijacking of the truth: Film evidence 'destroyed'

Protesters say Israel had an assassination list. Israel says soldiers fired only in self-defence. So what really happened on 31 May? Catrina Stewart reports

Jamal Elshayyal, a journalist with al-Jazeera, woke with a start to the opening salvos of an Israeli assault that would transform the decks of the Mavi Marmara, a Turkish vessel bound for Gaza, into a bloodbath.

From the ship's position deep in international waters, satellite images of Israeli speedboats and helicopters approaching the vessel were beamed across the globe before communications were abruptly cut off, leaving the events on the Marmara to unfold away from the eyes of the world.

Six days after the bloody assault that left nine foreign protesters, mainly Turks, dead, nobody can recount with any conviction precisely what happened that night. The convoy of ships, whose passengers included writers, politicians and journalists, had been expected for weeks, with organisers loudly broadcasting their plans to run Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip and draw international attention to the situation there.

From the beginning, it was clear that Israeli forces were concentrating in their largest numbers on the Marmara, a ship carrying some 550 peace activists. The remaining five boats were much smaller and easily commandeered. After the Marmara was subdued, the passengers silenced, and their recording equipment confiscated, Israel disseminated a carefully choreographed account of the events that night that would dominate the airwaves for the first 48 hours.

Only as eyewitnesses, traumatised by their experiences, started to return to their home countries, were serious questions raised about the veracity of the Israeli version of events. Israeli commandos initiated the attack on the Marmara with stun grenades, paintballs and rubber-cased steel bullets. They were met with water hoses as the ship's passengers tried to form a defensive cordon to prevent soldiers from reaching the wheelhouse. Next, the helicopters started their approach, hovering overhead as they tried to disgorge commandos.

From the other ships, passengers looked on helplessly: "The worst thing was seeing the helicopter come up because I knew they were going to invade," said Ewa Jasiewicz, a 32-year-old organiser. "You could hear the screams when they started shooting ... We wanted to stop and go back but there wouldn't have been anything we could have done."

From the moment the helicopters arrived, the sequence of events becomes confused. The dizzying number of claims and counter-claims serves only to present an incomplete account of a military operation that went badly, badly wrong. More than 1.7 million viewers have pored over the edited YouTube footage posted by the Israeli navy since Wednesday. In the dramatic clip, commandos rappel down on to the deck from a helicopter, where they are met by angry activists armed with iron bars and sticks.

This is a critical point, for Israel has rallied domestic opinion on the crucial claim that its soldiers dropped into a meticulously planned riot for which they were completely unprepared. Panicked, they acted in self-defence after they landed, shooting only those who threatened them.

The video is problematic, though. The images of angry protesters are striking, but they lack context. What happened before? What happened next? Had the soldiers started shooting when they descended to the deck? The only account offered by the Israelis of what happened next is left to Staff Sergeant S, a commando who claims he shot six of the protesters.

The last of 15 to arrive on the deck, he said he saw that two of his colleagues had gunshot wounds. Pushing others into a protective cordon around the injured soldiers, he shot at the protesters to force them to fall back. It's a neat account, but several eyewitness accounts tell a very different story.

Mr Elshayyal, a reporter for the Arab channel al-Jazeera, was standing to one side of the ship and had a view of the front and back of the vessel when the fighting started. By his account, soldiers fired down on the protesters from the helicopters before an Israeli soldier had even set foot on the ship. A man next to him was shot through the top of his head, dying instantly.

"What I saw were shots being fired from the helicopter above and moments later from below – from the ships," Mr Elshayyal said. "As far as I am concerned, it's a lie to say they only started shooting on deck."

At least two other eyewitnesses saw soldiers firing from above the ships before they landed on the Marmara's deck. It is possible that this is what prompted the fierce resistance to the soldiers when they dropped down. Several passengers recount how organisers urged their peers to stop hitting the soldiers, aware of how it would harm their claim to be peaceful protesters.

Others on the ship claim they raised a white flag, but say that it was ignored. They also used a loudspeaker to reiterate their message of surrender and requested that the injured be taken off the ship to get medical assistance. Again, they were ignored.

At some point early on, the activists dragged three, possibly four, injured soldiers to a lower deck, either to keep as hostages or for their own safety. It was then, several passengers say, that the situation quickly deteriorated. Israel has insisted that the protesters took two of the soldiers' pistols and used them, but others claim the pistols were taken away to prove that Israel planned to use live rounds.

Below, the protesters rummaged through captured soldiers' belongings and claimed to unearth a document that they allege is a list of people Israel intended to assassinate. The booklet, written in Hebrew and in English, contained some photographs of passengers on the Marmara, including the leader of IHH, the Turkish charity that provided two of the ships, an 88-year-old priest and Ra'ad Salah, head of the Northern Branch of the Islamic Movement in Israel, Mr Elshayyal said.

A military spokesman, Lt Col Avital Leibowitz, insisted soldiers acted in self-defence and that she "was not aware" of any list. But one thing is fast becoming clear – many of the dead were shot multiple times at point-blank range. One was a journalist taking photographs. "A man was shot ... between the eyebrows, which indicates that it was not an attack that took place from self-defence," Hassan Ghani, a passenger, said in an account posted on YouTube. "The soldier had time to set up the shot." Mattias Gardell, a Swedish activist, told the TT news bureau: "The Israelis committed premeditated murder ... Two people were killed by shots in the forehead, one was shot in the back of the head and one in the chest."

When Israeli troops had subdued the ship, they rounded up the passengers, bound their wrists, in some cases forcing activists into stress positions, and prevented them from using toilets. Mr Elshayyal said he was given just three sips of water before he was taken off the ship more than 24 hours later.

Their ordeal, of course, was not yet over. Accused of entering Israel illegally, the captives were transferred to an Israeli prison, where many were held in cramped cells and denied phone calls. Furious, Turkey sent three planes to transport the activists out of Israel, threatening to sever all diplomatic ties if they were not all released.

Meanwhile, much of the video footage confiscated from Marmara passengers remains undisclosed, and Israel has sought to undermine some eyewitness accounts by alleging some of the passengers were terrorist sympathisers bent on martyrdom.

Questions remain unanswered on both sides. But without a full and transparent airing of all the evidence, the truth of that dreadful night on the Marmara may never come to light.

In the meantime, the organisers say they will seek again and again to breach Israel's defences. Scottish protester Ali El-Awaisi said: "We sent six ships this time. Next time it will be 30 ships."

Given Israel's track record of murder, war crimes, breaking international law etc, I'm more than inclined to believe this version...