The Fall of the Occident is near

[Ben Kenobi]

I hope they hang onto the Greeks, then the whole pile can collapse and the Mark will come back.

[Kontiki]

Some fun facts about the uselessness of Greece:

http://www.thestar.com/business/article/802042--in-greece-you-get-a-bonus-for-showing-up-for-work?bn=1

In Greece you get a bonus for showing up for work

Dina Kyriakidou
Reuters News Agency

From a bonus for showing up to work to a dead father’s pension going to an unmarried daughter, arcane benefits bloat Greece’s budget by billions of euros a year.

As part of its efforts to end its debt crisis and escape default, Greece has pledged to start cutting back on such largesse, but decades of chaotic accounting at ministries means the exact statistics are hard to come by.

Some of the spending the government could cut:

SPOILED SPINSTERS

Tens of thousands of unmarried or divorced daughters of civil servants collect their dead parents’ pensions, weighing on a social security system that experts say will collapse in 15 years unless it is overhauled.

About 40,000 women benefit from the allowance at an annual cost of around 550 million euros ($731.5 million Cdn.), according to economic website capital.gr.

While the law protects civil servants from dismissal, it allows them to retire with a pension in their 40s.

Greek pension spending is expected to rise by 12 per cent of gross domestic product by 2050, according to European Union data. That compares with an EU average of less than 3 per cent of GDP.

The government has pledged to overhaul the social security system by raising the retirement age and banning early retirement. It plans to introduce a bill by May.

CHRISTMAS PRESENTS

In a system where bonuses can add 5 to 1,300 euros to a monthly paycheck, some civil servants are paid extra for using a computer. Some get a bonus for speaking a foreign language and others for arriving at work on time, while many foresters get a bonus for working outdoors. All Greek public and private sector workers get 14 monthly salary payments a year, a structure aimed at keeping basic monthly salaries, and the pensions that are based on them, low.

Half a month’s extra salary is paid at Easter and another half during the summer. The 14th salary is paid to civil servants at Christmas when the whole economy is geared to consuming it. Taxis, restaurants and hairdressers are legally allowed to charge extra as a “Christmas present.”

The government has already trimmed most bonuses by 12 per cent and Christmas and Easter salary bonuses by 30 per cent as part of its austerity plan, saving 1.7 billion euros ($2.26 billion).

FLYING FOR FREE

Labour unions foiled government attempts to sell debt-ridden Olympic Airways for decades, costing Greek taxpayers millions while employees enjoyed generous benefits—their family members could fly around the world for free.

The EU took disciplinary measures against Athens for pouring state money into the loss-making airline, even after private local airlines began serving similar routes for less.

Olympic was sold in 2008, but only after the state lavishly compensated or re-hired about 4,600 employees. Many blocked Athens’ thoroughfares recently because they had not received all their severance money.

The state owns 74 companies, mainly utilities and transport firms, many of which are overstaffed and loss-making, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. The main rail company employs about 9,000 people and reported losses of 800 million euros ($1.06 billion) in 2008.

The government has said it will merge some state companies and sell stakes in others.

COMMITTEE FOR WHAT?

Hundreds of state-appointed committees employ staff though it is not clear what they all do. Greece has a committee to manage Lake Kopais, which dried out in the 1930s.

One Greek newspaper estimated that committees employ more than 10,000 people and cost over 220 million euros ($292.6 million) a year.

Coming through on a pre-election pledge to cut such waste, the government recently announced it would shut down or merge at least 200 such committees that have outlived their usefulness.

COSTLY ARMS

Tensions with arch-rival Turkey have kept Greek military spending well above that of other EU members, reaching 14 billion euros, or 6 per cent of GDP, in 2007 and 2009.

Budget woes have limited military procurements and the 2010 defence budget now stands at 6.7 billion euros ($8.91 billion).

But nearly 80 per cent of Defence Ministry spending goes on administrative costs and payments of army staff. The government has said it will gradually reduce costs and spending on arms purchases will be contained to 1.8 billion euros.

[Az]

Unemployment 9.8% (October 2009)[3]
Main industries tourism; shipping; Industrial products, food and tobacco processing, textiles; chemicals, metal products; mining, petroleum

lol

their export mix is of a upper-range 3rd world country..... :/

EDIT:

Exports $18.64 billion (2009 est.)
Imports $61.47 billion (2009 est.)

lmao

[VetLegion]

The EU should show Greece the proverbial middle finger. This is not an issue
of helping a member who got into dire straits by some chance event, this is
just the end result of decades of spending way more than you produce.

I simply don't see why it's imperative for the future of Euro to help Greece,
not why her going bankrupt would undermine the EU.

Living standard of the Greeks will have to go down, no way around it.

[Sir Og]

The EU should show Greece the proverbial middle finger. This is not an issue
of helping a member who got into dire straits by some chance event, this is
just the end result of decades of spending way more than you produce.

I simply don't see why it's imperative for the future of Euro to help Greece,
not why her going bankrupt would undermine the EU.

Living standard of the Greeks will have to go down, no way around it.

QFMFT!
They should not be a part of Euro anyway because they've been cooking the stats for years.

[BeBMan]

Now that the help package is nearly through, protests against austerity measures in Greece kill three people when a bank was set on fire:

At least three people have been killed in the Greek capital as protesters set fire to a bank during a general strike over planned austerity measures.

The fire brigade said three bodies were found inside the Marfin Bank in Athens. Two other buildings are also on fire.

Petrol bombs were thrown at police who responded with pepper spray, tear gas and stun grenades.

Protesters are angered by spending cuts and tax rises planned in return for a 110bn euro (£95bn) bail-out for Greece.

Parliament is to vote on the measures by the end of the week.

Measures include wage freezes, pension cuts and tax rises. They aim to achieve fresh budget cuts of 30bn euros over three years, with the goal of cutting Greece's public deficit to less than 3% of GDP by 2014. It currently stands at 13.6%.

Outside parliament, a group of protesters rushed up a flight of steps, taunting MPs to come out and calling them "thieves".

Riot police forced them back, but right next to parliament, others groups set buildings on fire - including a tax office.

The Greek protesters' ire is aimed against symbols of capitalism, says the BBC's Malcolm Brabant in Athens.

Our correspondent says the deaths will change the equation, increasing pressure Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou who has spoken of "great sacrifices" needed.

But it may also create a backlash against violent protesters, our correspondent says.

The general strike is the third to hit Greece in as many months.


Quite simply Europe's future is at stake. Europe is at a fork in the road
German Chancellor Angela Merkel

Merkel urges support for Greece

Meanwhile, the German parliament has begun considering the bail-out plan for Greece.

Chancellor Angela Merkel urged MPs to back the emergency loan package agreed by European finance ministers at the weekend.

It requires Germany to pay the largest proportion of the loans.

"Quite simply, Europe's future is at stake," she said.

The EU has agreed to provide 80bn euros (£69bn) in funding - of which around 22bn euros would come from Germany - while the rest will come from the International Monetary Fund (IMF).

'Concern'

Flights in and out of Greece stopped at midnight, and trains and ferries were not running. Schools, hospitals, and many offices are shut.

The government has appealed to demoralised staff in the military, police, schools and hospitals not to retire, fearing the surge in demand for benefits could further drain treasury resources.

I'm feeling more and more angry every day, because those who got us into this mess are not held responsible
Thrasyvo Paxinos
Teacher

In pictures: Greece protests
Angry Greeks 'left carrying the can'
Greek economy 'to shrink by 3%'
Hewitt: Europe's days of anxiety

Foreign governments and investors are watching events in Greece with concern.

Chris Lowe of FTN Financial in New York told the BBC that the US financial community had been shocked by the violent protests.

"The [US] reaction is that [Greek] people will simply refuse to accept the austerity plan," he said.

"If the Greeks are this upset, then maybe we need to worry about the Portuguese and Spanish and Italians being upset with the cuts they're going to have to make."

Union leaders say the cuts target low-income Greeks.

"There are other things the [government] can do, before taking money from a pensioner who earns 500 euros (£430) a month," Spyros Papaspyros, leader of the public servants' union ADEDY, told Greek private television.
What went wrong in Greece?

An old drachma note and a euro note
Greece's economic reforms that led to it abandoning the drachma in favour of the euro in 2002 made it easier for the country to borrow money.

The opening ceremony at the Athens Olympics
Greece went on a debt-funded spending spree, including high-profile projects such as the 2004 Athens Olympics, which went well over budget.

A defunct restaurant for sale in central Athens
It was hit by the downturn, which meant it had to spend more on benefits and received less in taxes. There were also doubts about the accuracy of its economic statistics.

A man with a bag of coins walks past the headquarters of the Bank of Greece
Greece's economic problems meant lenders started charging higher interest rates to lend it money and widespread tax evasion also hit the government's coffers.

Workers in a rally led by the PAME union in Athens on 22 April 2010
There have been demonstrations against the government's austerity measures to deal with its 300bn euro (£267bn) debt, such as cuts to public sector pay.

Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou at an EU summit in Brussels on 26 March 2010
Now the government has announced that it needs to access the 30bn euros (£26bn) in emergency loans it has been offered by other EU countries.

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In Athens, Greeks spoke of their anger at the tough economic measures.

Businessman Dmitris Mentis told the BBC that wealthy Greeks had to pay their "fair share of the burden".

"The rich class has been evading taxes for decades now," he said.

Athens-based journalist Christos Michaelides told the BBC: "There is a big fear in the whole of society - a sense of injustice in most of the measures.

"There is a fear that things could get very, very ugly if people don't feel that what they are doing now, in these austerity measures, is going to be worthwhile."

On Tuesday, several thousand teachers and students marched to parliament carrying black flags and banners.

The demonstration was largely peaceful but some scuffles broke out near the parliament building.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8661385.stm

[Az]

this thread doesn't get nearly as much love as it should have

[C0ckney]

the bailout has already grown in size from 30 billion euros to an estimated 110 billion euros, and that money will only be enough to cover greece for the next two to three years, even with the austerity measures. what happens then? greece will still have a massive debt and with the economy likely to shrink over the next few years (by as much as 10% according to some analysts), how are they going to meet the interest payments? well i think we can guess... the greeks will once again go cap in hand and northern europe will have to pony up the dosh.

the attitude of the greek people astonishes me. in the EU, latvia, hungary, romainia and ireland have had big financial problems and have already had to take some pretty touch medicine. do the greeks think they're too good for that?

what happens when the markets lose confidence in portugual, or spain and they need a bailout. i wonder how politicians in northern europe are going to sell that to their people. at what point does it become unsustainable for southern european nations to be members of the euro?

[Barnabas]

It is shocking how similar the greek crisis is to the one Argentina had in 2001

Argentina had pegged their currency to the dollar in the early 90s to stop inflation, by the late 90s, especially after the Devaluation of the brazilian Real, the currency was extremely overvalued.

People were living above their means, and they didn't want to devaluate because they wanted to continue to be able to go on vacation to Miami and Cancun, even if the country was in recession since 98, and poverty and unemployment had not stopped growing slowly but steadily.

It was all a bubble financed by debt, dollars from the privatization of public companies, and vulture funds speculation. (greece has debt and free money from Germany France to finance herself)

Finally, after massive demostrations with over 30 dead people, the president resigned and the new presidents elected by the congress devaluated and defaulted on its debt.
That same year the recession was over and the economy grew at chinese rates of 9% for 5 years 2003-2007, even now the economy is doing rather well.
The massive devaluation made the currency very weak, suddenly we had huge trade surpluses, and the exporting businesemen, basically farmers, started to make money like crazy and they pulled the rest of the economy upwards. This next week we will finally end up renegotiatiing the remaining defaulted debt.

Greece will have to do the same, devaluate, default and renegotiate its debt, turn the savings in euros of the greeks in greek banks into drachmas, and turn the bank credits in euros into dracmas inside greece.

[Dinner]

Greece can't devalue since it's currency is the Euro. I'm afraid that if Greece was to default then that would have major negative effects on the Euro.

[Ben Kenobi]

True. Which is why the whole ship will sink.

[Barnabas]

Greece can't devalue since it's currency is the Euro. I'm afraid that if Greece was to default then that would have major negative effects on the Euro.

By devaluating I mean leaving the Euro, going back to the drachma

[Dinner]

I don't see the Greeks willingly doing that because then there would be no way to black mail northern Europe for bailouts.

[Barnabas]

In Argentina we also didn't want to be over with the 1 peso = 1 dollar pegging

You don't choose to do it, it just happens.

[Riesstiu IV]

Europe still owes Greece for 1054 and 1204.