Sex abuse scandal. Guess the religion?

[DanS]

The point is, they need to be REMOVED and tried... not moved so they can find new victims.

Right now in the US, do you believe that they are not being tried, but rather being moved around?

[Ming]

Hard to say... I'm sure the track record is better now... but frankly, they have covered it up in the past, so can we truely trust that it isn't still happening somewhere?

[rah]

It's hard to say since the RCC is so open about it.

[Ben Kenobi]

Baptism can be made irrelevant. If you reject Christ, your baptism becomes moot. Same with ordaining.

Agreed, but sin does not make your baptism irrelevant. Same with ordination. If ordination were made irrelevant by sin there would be no priests whatsoever.

Semantics. Priests need their authority from God. He can take it away.

And men cannot. Men are not gods, they cannot simply undo what has been accorded with God.

This is the standard which priests ought to be appointed, and the standard they need to meet as long as they are priests.

The scripture does not say this. It explicitly spells out the criteria by which one ought to qualify as a priest. You're reading this into the passage.

If they sin in such a grave way as pedophilia is, they are no longer worthy of priesthood.

Let me ask you something, do you believe that if a believer commits a sin that they can still be forgiven?

Priests are supposed to be the shepherds and example to the people. If they no longer can be that, they need to go. Simple as that.

Priests can sin too. You are right that they are held to a higher standard, but they do not lose their office.

Merely? Did you just say MERELY?

Yes, I did say merely. Rejecting God is on an entirely different level. It is the only way you can lose your salvation with God. All sins can be forgiven except for that one.

priests cannot commit such a grave sin as this and continue functioning as priests.

If the parishioners can be forgiven for their sins, then so can the priests.

They can remain Christians, follow Christ, get forgiveness from God and humans, if they repent, but they can under no circumstance remains shepherds of the people.

Again, your pastors are not perfect. They sin everyday. How then can they remain in their office, if as you say, if sin disqualifies them from the position? I realise this is an unpopular understanding, but it is the truth. All sins can be forgiven by Christ, there is no difference for the forgiveness granted to a parishioner as there is to the priest.

[Ben Kenobi]

Look up defrocking... it does work that way.

It was quoted already in the thread, Ming.

Defrocking simply means they are not permitted to exercise any of the ministerial functions of their office. They cannot hear confession (unless there is no one else there and someone is dying), they cannot celebrate mass. They cannot consecrate the eucharist. They cannot give homilies. However, they still remain a priest.

And you wanting to them to get away with it by simply reassigning them is just plain sick.

Sigh. I've said already I expect them to be disciplined in addition to reassignment. I don't believe it's a wise decision to keep him in the same parish.

[Ming]

It was quoted already in the thread, Ming.

Defrocking simply means they are not permitted to exercise any of the ministerial functions of their office. They cannot hear confession (unless there is no one else there and someone is dying), they cannot celebrate mass. They cannot consecrate the eucharist. They cannot give homilies. However, they still remain a priest.

Sigh. I've said already I expect them to be disciplined in addition to reassignment. I don't believe it's a wise decision to keep him in the same parish.

A priest who is not permeitted to exercise the ministerial functions is no longer a priest. You can argue words, but they CAN BE REMOVED FROM THE OFFICE! And they should be thrown out and not reassigned anywhere. Some have been thrown out and defrocked. But not enough... THEY ALL SHOULD BE if found guilty. And sure, they can remain catholics, and god can forgive them their sins just like anybody else... but they should no longer hold the authority over others since they abused that right.

[Ben Kenobi]

Second, you yourself made the utterly arbitrary claim that "half" of those accused were actually guilty. In the U.S. alone there have been over 4000 accusations against priests, that would (according to you) mean that ~2000 priests were guilty. Since ~300 have been convicted.

Stop right there. If only 300 have been convicted, that is a conviction rate of only 8 percent of the accusations. That's a terrible ratio. How many other crimes have a conviction rate of 8 percent.

I simply estimated 50 percent to err on the side of caution, giving you the benefit of the doubt. Given the actual statistics, I'm fully willing to drop my arbitrary assessment.

That's completely disregarding the fact that most of those 4000 accused only escaped prosecution because they were dead by the time the allegations came to light.

Oh bull****. Most were let go because the allegations were found to be unsubstantiated.

****, even the Church acknowledges many more priests committed abuses than have actually been convicted. They've been apologizing for them left and right lately, remember? They have also acknowledged (as with these recent German revelations) that they quietly shuffled priests away when they were accused and did not hand them over to the authorities (which they now say they WILL do).

Sigh, I've had a chance to read the actual statement of the fellow who was responsible and he talks a bit more about the case. He wasn't reassigned in order to cover up the incident, but to get him out of the parish. He likely will lose his position, as he said it was his job to know what was going on and to keep closer tabs on the priest. That did not happen.

Since priests can and have been incarcerated for their crimes, this is an utterly meaningless distinction on your part. No, Ben, priests do not have immunity from the local laws and they certainly can be convicted AND incarcerated for them.

Some are accused (around 4 percent). Of that 4 percent, less than a tenth are convicted. Less than a tenth of those ever see incarceration. That's an incarceration percentage of around 0.04 percent, which amounts to around a priest a year. The norm is for the Church to impose discipline.

Not even the Church asserts such.

Actually, the Church has and will continue to assert that they will ignore laws contrary to their primary mission.

[rah]

Question, convicted serial killer. Says killed because God told him too so he hasn't forsaken god. But decides to resign the priesthood. Is he still a priest?

And what is the church's punishment? It's not doing time with guys that hate those that diddle kids. Oh, I have to cook dinner for the other priests, man tough punishment. I don't have to get up early to serve mass, another tough one.

And quoting the problem with convicting priests that the church is protecting as evidence that it's not that big a problem is pretty hilarious.

[Ecofarm]

Who told him beside God?


(That works on more than one level)

[Ben Kenobi]

A priest who is not permeitted to exercise the ministerial functions is no longer a priest.

WRONG! He's still a priest.

You can argue words, but they CAN BE REMOVED FROM THE OFFICE

No, they cannot be removed from their office of the priesthood. They can be stripped of their responsibilities in one parish and reassigned, but they are not de-ordained.

And they should be thrown out and not reassigned anywhere.

Disagree. You'd throw out all the sinners out of the Church?

And sure, they can remain catholics, and god can forgive them their sins just like anybody else... but they should no longer hold the authority over others since they abused that right.

I know this isn't an obvious question, but this is what you were taught Ming. Sacramentals can't be undone. Marriage, Ordination, Baptism, etc. They are all the same. They are an indelible sign.

[Ming]

Actually, the Church has and will continue to assert that they will ignore laws contrary to their primary mission.

And what is their primary mission... abusing children?
Is that why they ignored the law and covered up when their priests were abusing and raping little children?
It's nice to know what one of the primary missions of the church is.

[Ben Kenobi]

Question, convicted serial killer. Says killed because God told him too so he hasn't forsaken god. But decides to resign the priesthood. Is he still a priest?

No, he's not because he chose to resign.

And what is the church's punishment? It's not doing time with guys that hate those that diddle kids. Oh, I have to cook dinner for the other priests, man tough punishment. I don't have to get up early to serve mass, another tough one.

3 years wow, that's such a long prison term.

[Ben Kenobi]

And what is their primary mission... abusing children?

You're a Catholic. What is their primary mission? This shouldn't be a hard question.

Is that why they ignored the law and covered up when their priests were abusing and raping little children?

It's why they defied the laws in the Soviet Union and held masses, and were executed by the state.

[Ecofarm]

WRONG! He's still a priest.

And I'm still a paratrooper, though it has been almost decades since my enlistment.

My point: has this degraded into semantics, whereas a priest who is convicted of genocide and sentenced in The Hague, The Vatican, The US and The Chavez to spend life in prison is still "a priest"?



ps. The Chavez did not convict me, he likes genocide.

[Ming]

WRONG! He's still a priest.

With no right to perform as a priest.

No, they cannot be removed from their office of the priesthood. They can be stripped of their responsibilities in one parish and reassigned, but they are not de-ordained.

Yes they can be removed from office... and they have been in the past.

Disagree. You'd throw out all the sinners out of the Church?

Never said they should be thrown out of the church... i said just the opposite. They should be thrown out of office... and again, some have been.

I know this isn't an obvious question, but this is what you were taught Ming. Sacramentals can't be undone. Marriage, Ordination, Baptism, etc. They are all the same. They are an indelible sign.

They can't be undone (but annulments of marriages act the same way, but is just a sneaky way around it)... but priests CAN BE REMOVED FROM OFFICE and the right to perform the sacraments TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM.